PS Grand to hot for the p-64?

[9x18shooter]

What do you guys think? I have shot a few mags of it in the p-64 and cz-82. It is getting closer to the thick clothing season. It is a bit hotter than the silver bear I currently carry.

[nbender]

Since PS Grand is some of the fastest 9x18 I can understand why you'd ask.

For comparison, using my chronograph:

PS Grand with a 95-grain bullet averaged 1070 fps for 241 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle

Norinco with a 93-grain bullet averaged 1014 fps giving 212 ft/lbs

Silver Bear 94-grain FMJ: 969 fps 196 ft/lbs

But ... ft/lbs and velocity don't directly equate to pressure produced in the pistol's chamber. Pressure data is pretty impossible to obtain from the Europeans.

Pressure standards in the U.S. are set by the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute (SAMMI). European ammunitions standards are set by Commission Internationale Permanente (C.I.P.). The two agencies sometimes (usually?) conflict with their standards, and I haven't found much published information on European ammunition testing.

So two things:

- I believe the PS Grand did pass C.I.P. pressure testing as it was produced for the commercial market, so is within the pressure design limit for the 9x18 cartridge;

- The cartridge produces more ft/lbs, and therefore more recoil, than most other standard (i.e. 93 to 95-grain) 9x18 cartridges.

I believe that with the increased recoil it's Ok to use in the heavier Makarov, I probably wouldn't want to use it in a PA-63 (because of the aluminum frame), and it's use in a P-64 falls between those two recommendations.

And that's just an opinion. Others please chime in.

[nbender]

Ok, one more shot at trying to ellict comment:

The 115-grain Silver Bear started the comments about needing a heavier spring in the Makarov to handle these heavy loads (well, maybe the 120-grain SB started it, but that was a bogus bullet as it was near the same weight as the 115-grain and travelled slower).

The 115-grain SB averaged 1011 fps, producing a muzzle energy of 261 ft/lbs.

The 95-grain PS Grand, travelling at 1070 fps and producing 241 ft/lbs, is closer to the heavy SB round in muzzle energy than it is to milspec rounds (93 - 95 grain, travelling at 850 - 1000 fps, with muzzle energies around 210 ft/lbs).

So my opinion is that it's a stouter round than normal so use it with that advice.

All readers interested in ballistics please post an opinion.

[papabear]

nbender,

Can't offer an opinion on ballistics, its not my cup of tea, but I know from several different boards that you are up fairly well informed and respected for you ballistic info, this is all I can offer about this topic, however, I do take the ballistics numbers and make a decision on what ammo to buy, be it right or wrong, sometimes for me I feel like its like reading a handicap sheet at the race track, I love horses too, but I confess it's not my cup of tea either.

papabear

[nbender]

papabear, thanks for responding to my admittedly over-the-top sort of analysis.

I did provide a qualified interpretation - I think it's a stout round. If I had left it at that, maybe more members would have posted an opinion!

I'm a scientist, not an engineer. Engineers say "yes" or ... "no". I provide data for interpretation. I realize this stuff is not the cup of tea most here are used to. In fact, posting this kind of data has got me some grief here in the past. I continue on, trying to haul the more inquisitive of you into this realm, but I take no offense if this is not where you want to go.

[9x18shooter]

NB, I knew that at least you were going to give me a little more in depth info than what is in the data that you and few others have gathered. That is what I was looking for. I have seen a few posts here and there about people shooting 109gr wolf or 115gr SB and it all runs together sometimes. I can't remember if they were using a mak or a p-64 or a cz-82. I tend to agree with you about the pressures and while they may be close to spec I don't want to wear out or break a pistol prematurely.

I have a few hundred rds. of the PS Grand and was saving it for winter carry with the cz-82 and pondering shooting some more of it with my beater p-64.

I also have 12rds left of the old Corbon 95gr JHP. I could carry that in the cz I guess but sooner or later I would want to shoot it. I wouldn't want to carry a mag full of ammo for years only to discover that when I need to use it for SD it malfunctions. :'(

I would love to find some more of the PS Grand someday!!

[nbender]

9x18, if I'm allowed one more comment - well, it's the internet and who's to stop me - that PS Grand is some of the best 9x18 hardball ever made. Now there's a definitive statement. The standard deviation of the velocities I tested was small (it's built to tight spec) and the velocity is higher than any U.S. manufacturer will attempt. It burns clean and accurate. There has been so much European ammo come and go - but give me that PS Grand; those Slovakian boys know how to make 9x18.

[9x18shooter]

NB, you can make as many comments as you want. I respect your opinions and thank you for what you have contributed to the boards. :-*

I remember seeing info on some site about a 9x18 pistol (I wish I could remember which one) and it said in the specs that PS Grand was used with it. I will try to dig that one up.
I agree it is clean, hot and accurate. ;D

[nbender]

Now that's two too many guys who've said they respect my opinions! Well, actually papabear said I'm "fairly well informed" and that's closer to the mark.

This stuff is a hobby and a science and a lot of fun for the inquisitive person who wants to fool around and test things.

Having said that, I've seen where some complete boneheads post test data and get well received - so everything on the ethernet should be treated as suspect, including yours truly.

[normsutton]

nbender

I don't know of anyone else who has done the testing on factory ammo as much as you have ,and mostly at your own expense , even though I don't buy a lot of factory ammo being a hand loader, when you speak on factory ammo I pay attention as many of use do on this board an on the The Makarov Forum .
I think the only disagreement we have is on wolf ammo, I think if people stop buying it, wolf will get their ducks in a row and start producing a quality product like silver bear or brown bear ammo or other brands.

But what do I know I only shoot my reloads or brass cased ammo that I can reload.

PS. as far as I'm concerned you are an expert on 9 x 18 factory ammo and I thank you for all your great work

NORM

[9x18shooter]

I read it on the internet so it must be true!!

Most of the time you can tell if someone is blowing smoke.

Norm is right. NB, you have spent a lot of time and personal expense to gather data and we thank you. Don't sell yourself short.

Maybe I will carry the black box MFS in the p-64 for the colder months and save the PS Grand for the cz-82 or the mak. I wish Corbon still made the 95gr. JHP but it would be as expensive as the Hornady XTP or more.

Thanks for the input guys!!

[garry]

Good Job NBender ==AGAIN ! I for one have said many times how great your explainations and Data are ! You made some of the Best(and Only) data for the 9x18mm that is available and you should be proud to know that you are an "Expert" in the field of that specialized round ! I mean That. G

Now, I Do have a question ==
Do you recall what diameter each of those bullets were? as in = which were .363/.364/.365? When i reload , i have ran into three different sized bullets and just wonder what diameter seems to be the most consistent and i know it matters how "worn out" each gun's barrel is, but for sake of a "standard " to go by here,Let's say a " new condition" barrel- which bullet diameter is likely to squeeze thru best/most accurately ? In your opinion. (which IMO is the tops! ) Please /Thanks/and Keep up the Great work Man !!! G

[garry]

BTW, NBender, Your Data is ULTRA Valuable to ALL !! Please don't stop ! G

[normsutton]

Garry

you need to slug your bore to find out dia. bullet to shoot first

I shoot 363. in my all my 9 x 18 pistol especially in my FEG guns they feed better

115 grn Silver Bears are 364. dia.
MSF+P are 363. dia
Winchester are 363. dia
FIOCCHI are 363. dia.

don't know what any others are don't buy any more factory ammo any more

NORM

[nbender]

Norm had asked me a long time ago if I had measured bullet diameters. I have the pulled bullets from all 60 varieties of 9x18 that I've tested, but I just haven't got around to those measurements like I told Norm I would.

So Norm did it himself.