OT - C&R Question

[abwehr]

I am pretty well up to date on all the C&R rules and regulations, but I have a question and wondered if anyone know the real answer..........

I bought one of the CZ82 pistols prior to them being C&R, so I had to go thru my local firearms dealer. All the proper paperwork was completed for regular pistol transfer. My questions is; now that they are listed as C&R, do I have to add it to my Bound Book? I can't find the answer in my Federal Regulations Book, have I missed it somewhere?

[normsutton]

abwehr

this has been hashed over and over on other forum's some say you do others say you don't
and I don't know the answer I think it would be up to your local ATF office

I have a lot of old firearms that I've had for years before I had my C&R that are on the list

NORM

[papabear]

Interesting question, and I am sure one that has been hashed around both ways quite a bit........I happen to know a BATF officer and will get his interpretation and let you know what he says. I personally do not have a C&R, not that I couldn't but perfer not to, because of the red tape involved for one thing and for another it restricts the easy of getting another milsurp handgun or rife, I have way to many now and I hate to think how many more I would have if I had a C&R. Having said that, I admit at times I wish I had a C&R, but for now I will stay a non-C&R accumulator. Just my $0.02 worth.

papabear

[carguy]

The way I understand it, yes you will need to log it in for disposition but not as a purchase.

I understand the law to be: Boundbook logging of all C&R firearms purchased AFTER being issued you C&R FFL then log in ALL C&R DISPOSITIONS regardless of the timing of their acqusition (pre or post C&R license) at the time of sale. (Think about it, you may not have purchased them with the use of your C&R FFL, but you will be selling them as a C&R FFL holder, once you took possession of that C&R FFL all C&R sales are as a C&R FFL and thus need to be logged as such.)

Once a C&R always a C&R so I figure the more info the better. I added a page to my boundbook (a single first page) that contains the info regarding all my 2 C&R firearms owned pre-C&R (and note them as such) for future reference if I sell them the info is right there and if I am ever ATF audited the info, although unnecessary, is right there. Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it...especially when it comes to dealing with the feds!

[bzinggg]

I believe it's about transfers of ownership; and record keeping by the ATF. You don't have to record firearms previously purchased until you sell them. However, it would probably be viewed as "co-operative" if you did, by any agent who audits your log.

[saands]

My understanding is the same as Carguy's ... you don't need to log them until you dispose of them.

Saands

[rlj102468]

I would hope that the ATF would be able to give someone the right info, but I get so many different answers on my carry questions it is pitiful. I have sent away for my paperwork to apply and am saving up for a new old rifle, maybe a M3, M44, or91/30 ! Any hints?
C-Ya, Bobby J.

[carguy]

I'm new to the C&R as well and just made my first C&R purchase a couple of weeks ago...bought an M91/30. Love it, lots out there in good condition (remember these are old, mine was stamped 1925) but cleaned up nice and handles like a dream. The long barrel lessens the recoil, I under the M38 & M44 are louder, flame throwers and has substantially harder kickers (not from 1st hand experience). But the variety is immense, Mausers, SKSs, it all depends on your budget. And with a C&R be careful as they seem to want to multiply (making my 2nd purhase soon) it took me literally years (decades) to acquire the firearms I had before my C&R now I've had it about a month and I'm working on number 2 and a bigger safe! 8~)

[bzinggg]

Well, I've gone to the site and read and read and I've heard a lot of questions and answers on the subject on different forums. I like carguy's idea of recording them since they are a collection and it's an upfront attitude.

From a common sense point of view, I have an opinion that what is really important to the BATFE, among other things, is the ability to track the serial numbers of guns used in crime, naturally. So, in consideration of the time it takes, it's the connection of the serial number to an individual in their data banks that they wish to discover. If this has been provided through a class 1 transfer on the guns one has previously owned, it isn't advantageous to re-enter duplicate information from the standpoint of the progress of investigations.

I am aware the possibility of Face to Face transfers that never get recorded. In carguy's case, along with a multitude of other folks, since it is sensible to believe that he is law-abiding because he qualified for the type 7 liscense, the guns that have never been recorded at all because they have been in his family for a long time, are irrelevant to the agency and other LEOs because they haven't been used in a crime.

Now I don't want to get into some long, nit-picking argument with anyone about the absolute facts according to this or that. It's fine for anyone to disagree. We all just learn so much and there is always something more to learn and nobody can know everything about everything. But, after awhile, you put your experience together with what you've learned and you know what you think and that's what I think.

It is, without a doubt, preferable to be able to be accountable for all the firerarms you possess in case, inadvertently or otherwise, you get audited or even investigated. However, if you are not involved with anything there is no way an ATF agent is going to spend the time and budget to come over to your place and hassle you about your C & R binder.

[abwehr]

Guys, THANKS for all the very informative information! I feel the same as most of you about the disposition of the pistol, that is should be logged into the bound book.

Actually, when I got my C&R license years ago, I logged all the firearms I had pusrchased the previous years into my book. Most were rifles at the time and as I got away from long guns, I logged the sales/trades into the disposition section. I did this just to keep me on the safe side. I will do a little more checking and decide what to do. Man, these "grey" areas are tough to deal with when you don't have a definative answer. I hope this thread helps others too!

[drogers]

I would hope that the ATF would be able to give someone the right info, but I get so many different answers on my carry questions it is pitiful. I have sent away for my paperwork to apply and am saving up for a new old rifle, maybe a M3, M44, or91/30 ! Any hints?
C-Ya, Bobby J.

You may like the M38 better than the M44. The main difference is that the M38 does not have the bayonet to weight the gun down, or if your are into bayonets get the M44.

[papabear]

Well I talked to the BATF guy I know in FL, long and short, if you are a C&R holder and you own it, you should log it in your Bound Book. According to him the term, Curio, was some what subjective to different BTAF offices around the country, and to be on the safe side all handguns and long guns [new, used or C&R] bought before or after the C&R license should be listed, and he also said, as some on there have stated, that it would show good faith by logging all firearms in your Bound Book, other wise it might cast doubt on your record keeping. He did say that his office rarely asked for the logs of C&R license holders unless as mentioned by bzinggg, they were looking for SN's for guns used in the commission of crime's or stolen guns and that number led them to the C&R holder. He mentioned that a law abiding citizen should not object to keeping a record of their firearms, that he had seen case's where judges would give the benefit of doubt to those that did keep up to date and correct records of their firearms regardless if they had a C&R or not. I do not have a C&R but I do keep records of all my firearms as to pertinent information. Dont' know if this helps or not, but that is what I was told by this BTAF officer.

papabear