Put On Your Thinking Caps!

[robhic]

This is truly weird. I took two P-64s to the range today. I had 3 different types of ammo (1 steel-case Wolf, 1 PPU brass, and 1 brass I forget the brand) in 5 magazines. These 2 pistols worked fine 2 weeks ago. All I did was change the recoil springs to new Wolff 18# (original weight) on both and changed the firing pin spring on one (the one that came in the package with the replacement recoil spring). I added Hogue Handall sleeves to them, too.

Shot the one with just the new recoil spring and got about 4 rounds off then nothing. Dropped the mag and the bullet had no mark on it. So I tried another mag with different ammo. Nothing! Took it out and tried a 3rd mag with another type ammo and again nothing! No marks on the primers to indicate light hits, just no marks at all.

OK loaded the 2nd pistol with the first, steel cased ammo remaining from when the first couple rounds did fire before it all stopped. Nothing! What? Dropped the mag and tried the other brass ammo that didn't fire in #1 gun. Nope, nothing. Not a dent or mark! Repeated with 3rd ammo brand (brass) and, you guessed it, NOTHING! No marks, dings, dents or scratches. I pulled the slides off and pushed the firing pins in with a stick and they moved and seemed to extend all the way out, which told me they hadn't broken or were binding up. THIS IS NUTS! Neither pistol would fire in either SA or DA mode. They DID last time I fired them ....

It seems to me that changing the recoil springs and the one firing pin spring should NOT cause rounds to not fire AT ALL. Especially when the first gun fired 4 times and then stopped but it was the one with the original firing pin spring. Seems I remember reading about the disconnector that slides up and down rubbing on the slide but I can't find that thread (nor do I remember if that even had any bearing on this non-firing problem, anyway). Mine slides freely, if that makes any difference.

So anybody got any thoughts on why or HOW this could happen? I'm gonna put the original recoil springs back on, just for the heck of it. FP spring I'm gonna wait until my new hemostats arrive 'cause I ain't fighting THAT battle underarmed again!!! It's not worth my sanity! Thanks.

[Curly1]

Are your slides going completely into battery?

[snailman153624]

Did you put the recoil springs on the correct way? It's possible you have them on there backwards. This can cause the slide to hang up on the barrel a little bit. I'm with Curly, it's not going into battery. You can confirm this by pushing the slide forward by hand and seeing if it clicks in (and fires).

[robhic]

Are your slides going completely into battery?

Honestly, that's not something I specifically looked for. Good point. Even if the slide was out just a bit I'd have hoped I'd noticed. I removed the slides, tinkered with the firing pins to make sure they were free and extended as far as possible (the 4 rounds then nothing made me fear a broken firing pin...) but that was all fine. I most certainly coulda missed a very slight out-of-battery condition. I went home, cleaned and cleaned (although they were already clean from last outing I figured it couldn't hurt), lubed a tiny drop of Ballistol in a few places and disregarded my #1 rule about lube and firing pins and put just a tiny drop of Ballistol in the opening at the rear then blew it out. I lubed the loaded chamber indicator not knowing if it sticking might cause some problem so it's free (it was free before but ...) and put the old recoil springs back on. It's good I was lazy and hadn't taken the trash out so I fished them out for reuse! I'm still HUGELY skeptical the new recoil spring(s) could cause this. Ejection problems and/or stuff like that - maybe. FTF? I have a problem thinking that would be a cause. I'm bringing the new springs with me and after running through some rounds (being optimistic here!) I'll swap the recoil springs out (again) and see what that does. I'm also gonna pay much closer attention to the out-of-battery theory. That does have potential because I can't say with certainty it DIDN'T occur, just that if it did, it was so slight so as to be not easily noticed so thanks a bunch for that idea. I WILL watch it today!

[robhic]

Did you put the recoil springs on the correct way? It's possible you have them on there backwards. This can cause the slide to hang up on the barrel a little bit. I'm with Curly, it's not going into battery. You can confirm this by pushing the slide forward by hand and seeing if it clicks in (and fires).

Yep, the springs were on correctly - snug end on first. I have a Bersa Thunder that is the same way so I've learned to watch for that. The out-of-battery theory has got potential. As my response to Curly said, I would have hoped I'd noticed that but I can NOT say with certainty that it did not happen. I wasn't specifically looking for OOB so could have missed it. Even taking the slides off and on and fiddling with everything - rapid trigger pulling, SA over and over I guess it might still not been enough to jog things into place. I cleaned, relubed (again!) and re-installed the old springs (I was too lazy to put the trash out ) so I'll try them first but I'm bringing the new ones with me to try again if the guns run for a while like they should (like they BETTER!!). Thanks for the input. If it is an OOB problem and I didn't notice it I am gonna be ... well let's keep it clean and say I ain't gonna be happy I went thru this for something so simple!!! Heck, the guy at the range didn't even charge me for the time he felt so sorry about the disaster!

[Curly1]

Try the pencil test at home first to see if the firing pin is striking the eraser, point up with your hand about 6 inches or so away from the tip of the pencil.

Pencil should jump pretty good if you are in battery and getting a good strike.

I always do this test before putting one of my carry weapons into my rotation.

[robhic]

Try the pencil test at home first to see if the firing pin is striking the eraser, point up with your hand about 6 inches or so away from the tip of the pencil.

Pencil should jump pretty good if you are in battery and getting a good strike.

I always do this test before putting one of my carry weapons into my rotation.

I should have mentioned that, last night, after re-assembly I did just that. Pencils shot out each and every time and in all positions! That made me feel a LOT more optimistic. Range day today and all went perfectly. Shot about 50 rds in each gun - not even a hiccup. Then I put the new Wolff 18# recoil springs back on and NO CHANGE! I then shot around 25-30 more rounds of different types thru each gun and all was fine. I'm gonna say FIXED! I DID pay close attention for out-of-battery issues (before every magazine) and no problems, so I really can't say what caused the problem(s) yesterday. But I DO feel a bunch better today. Other than a few "stovepipes" and maybe 1-2 jams out of a good 175 rounds fired I am pleased. And the range guy charged me today!
THANKS ALL FOR REMINDING ME OF OUT-OF-BATTERY ISSUES! If it happens in the future, hopefully I'll remember this and check it.

[Curly1]

I luv happy endings

[snailman153624]

Having put thousands of rounds through, never a single ftf,fte, or stovepipe. Something is wrong. Perhaps your ejector is damaged and this is also causing your out of battery condition.

[robhic]

Having put thousands of rounds through, never a single ftf,fte, or stovepipe. Something is wrong. Perhaps your ejector is damaged and this is also causing your out of battery condition.

You are a lucky man! I wish I could say that. But that's an interesting point. Maybe I need to go check the ejector, itself, a little closer because it's not something I looked at. I'll compare it (the one that gave the problem) to another that seems to run withOUT problems. Oh darn, that means I'll have to go shooting some more to do the test/comparison. The things you just have to do sometimes ....

Thanks for that bit of info. While it wasn't a lot of FT___, I guess 3-4 out of 175 or so ain't ALL that great.

[Curly1]

Did you happen to have both slides off together while doing the spring changes?

[robhic]

Did you happen to have both slides off together while doing the spring changes?

No, 'cause one is a 1968 vintage and I changed that one first just because. Then after thinking about it, the other is a 1975 and I figured 40 years was old enough to merit a spring change and I also wanted to try the firing pin spring, too, so did it all together as a separate project. When I changed them back I had anal-retentively marked the bags with the dates of the springs the bag contained (in the trash) so I was easily able to put the original spring back in its proper pistol. After shooting with the original springs and all going well, I replaced the springs with new ones and put the old ones back in the marked bags but kept them this time ... just in case. Whaddaya gettin' at? Just curious.

[Curly1]

I was thinking maybe you mixed up the slides if you had them off together and they didn't like their new homes.