My P64 does have a hammer block

[Trooper joe]

I was just browsing the forum and came across this concern about the hammer being partially pulled back due to a snag or other cause, then firing the gun/

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4378&p=42642&hilit= ... ety#p42642

I am a little confused since it does appear that my P64 (made in 1976) does in fact have a hammer block that would not allow the gun to fire if the hammer was to snag or be partially pulled back in some other manner.

Possibly some of these P64's do not have this feature. I reviewed some of the take down videos available and they do not mention a hammer block.

Here is a photo with my P64 trigger at rest. What I have identified as a hammer block, will not let the hammer go forward. It does block the hammer unless the trigger is pulled.



Here is a photo with my trigger pulled back in the firing position. Notice the hammer block is lowered. Now you can in fact, push the hammer forward where it will fire the gun. The hammer is on a "rebound" type assembly. After firing, it returns to a position that allows the hammer block to raise back in place.



Any thoughts on this issue?

Thanks,

Trooper Joe

[Ketchman]

Trooper Joe,

All P-64's have a hammer block safety. It operates when the safety is applied when the hammer is a the full cock position and drops the hammer to the at rest position. But, like all mechanical devices it may at some point fail allowing a hammer that has been pulled back from the at rest position from being snagged to fall and hit the firing pin resulting in an AD.

[Trooper joe]

Trooper Joe,

All P-64's have a hammer block safety. It operates when the safety is applied when the hammer is a the full cock position and drops the hammer to the at rest position. But, like all mechanical devices it may at some point fail allowing a hammer that has been pulled back from the at rest position from being snagged to fall and hit the firing pin resulting in an AD.

I am aware of the safety on the slide you are referring to. I am focusing on the hammer block in the frame of the gun. I have read numerous posts that state that the P-64 does not have a hammer block safety system in the frame that prevents the gun from firing when the slide safety is set for fire and when the hammer is only slightly pulled back such as snagging it when removing it from your pocket.

After reading the thread at viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4378&p=42642&hilit=floor+safety#p42642 , it appears that the writers are experiencing a problem when, even if the trigger is not touched, the hammer can be pulled slightly back and released thus causing an accidental discharge. I tried that test on my gun and discovered that with the slide safety on fire, and the trigger not touched (in the forward most position) and if I slightly pull back on the hammer and release it, the firing pin will not go forward. The hammer does not touch the firing pin at all on my P-64.

I am thinking that some earlier P-64's either do not have the same system as on my gun, or at one time or another it was removed.

At the present time, I am perfectly comfortable carrying my P-64 with a loaded chamber and the slide safety/decocker in the fire mode.

Thanks,

Trooper Joe

[Ketchman]

Trooper Joe,
Did you mean a firing pin safety? Because if I am correct the P-64 has a hammer block safety (which blocks the hammer when it is dropped from the cocked position) but does NOT have a firing pin safety which blocks the firing pin from forward movement unless the trigger has been pulled through a full arc. That is why the P-64 can indeed fire when the trigger has not been pulled but the hammer has been forced forward with enough momentun / force to cause it to strike the firing pin. There was a forum member who posted the pictures of his leg after he had an AD from, I believe, a hammer snagging incident. I will see if I can find the thread but any of the other brother hood remember that help me out please.

[Trooper joe]

Trooper Joe,
Did you mean a firing pin safety? Because if I am correct the P-64 has a hammer block safety (which blocks the hammer when it is dropped from the cocked position) but does NOT have a firing pin safety which blocks the firing pin from forward movement unless the trigger has been pulled through a full arc. That is why the P-64 can indeed fire when the trigger has not been pulled but the hammer has been forced forward with enough momentun / force to cause it to strike the firing pin. There was a forum member who posted the pictures of his leg after he had an AD from, I believe, a hammer snagging incident. I will see if I can find the thread but any of the other brother hood remember that help me out please.

You are partially correct. I believe that the firing pin, even though it has a spring around it that pushes it to the rear, could through the force of a drop on the muzzle of the gun, strike a primer and set it off (same concern of the pre-series 80 1911guns).

However, at least on my gun, the hammer cannot go forward and hit the firing pin without pulling the trigger back and moving the hammer block in the frame, out of the way. I am really wondering if some of the last P64's had this and some of the earlier ones did not.

The site where an AD is documented is at viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4378&p=42642&hilit= ... ety#p42642 , as I mentioned in my first post.

I am not sure I am too concerned about the firing pin flying forward with enough inertia (again not being hit by the partial cocking of the hammer) to fire a round in the chamber. I am aware that by using the safety, even that remote chance is addressed since the safety barrel locks the firing pin in place not allowing it to go forward.

Thanks for your reply. I am pursuing this since I really wonder about the possibility of a different internal system in some of these P64's.

Trooper Joe

[robhic]

You guys'll have to excuse some of my "newness" because I've been trying to digest all of the info going back and forth here and on some other of the threads discussing this firing pin blocking issue. In fact, Curly1 pretty much persuaded me to NOT carry the P-64 condition 1 for just that reason. I really don't like the extra step of taking off the safety before firing, especially should it be at a time when speed is required but it looks like a good idea for safety's sake.

All that said, I have tried to understand what is being said/pictured. Obviously if I put a pencil in the (unloaded!!!) barrel of my gun and pull the trigger the pencil flies out. Good and proper FP action. OK, so I pulled the trigger and held it back, dropped the pencil in and thumbed the hammer (this is a 1975 model, BTW) back a ways. When I let it go, the pencil jumped. Not a lot but ANY movement bothers me.

Trooper Joe, I look in my P-64 with slide removed and it looks pretty much like yours. But I'm not getting where there is any kind of "blocking" mechanism for anything. Different years, pistols, etc? I've got a 1977 P-64 I need to check later when a get time and compare the 75 the 77 and your photo. Right now, I'm still as confused as I was earlier. But that's not unusual!

[snailman153624]

I can confirm that a '76 also has the rebounding hammer. Unless the hammer is cocked all the way back (at which point the only way to release it is to pull the trigger, or perhaps drop it while the hammer is fully cocked), the hammer is blocked from striking the firing pin.

Visually I can see this happening, and the pencil test also confirms there is no FP contact unless the hammer is fully cocked and trigger is pulled. The only movement I observed in the pencil when releasing the hammer after partial cocking is from the hammer hitting the rebound stop and causing the whole pistol to move in your hand slightly. If I held on real tight this movement went away.

Note that even pulling the trigger and then pulling the hammer partway back did not defeat the rebounding hammer mechanism. It has to be fully cocked.

I am tending to agree that perhaps older models do not have rebounding hammers, and this may have been one of the changes/improvements that made its way into the design over the years.

[Ketchman]

Ok guys, I will try to explain this better. First we MUST remember that this was designed as a military / police weapon in the early 1960's by people who's last sidearm (T-33) had NO safety of any kind. That being said, they designed the P-64 to have a decocker/ hammer block/ firing pin safety. Since peasants are not the smartest (ComBlock thnking of the time) the pistol needs to have the fewest number of things to remember how to do to make it work. The safety on the P-64 is designed to either be all in or all out, either all safe, safety on, or to fire easily, safety off, AND to make it simple to change from easy to fire to all safe where nothing will work. When the safety is in the "fire" position it releases the firing pin to freely move for and aft and clears the way for the hammer to strike the firing pin by rotating the safety barrel back and moving the raised part which keeps the hammer from moving forward enough to be able to contact the firing pin. In this state, safety off, all parts can freely move and cause discharge. Whether the hammer is all the way to the rear or only part of the way, the path to the firing pin is completely clear so the hammer only needs to impart enough force to the firing pin to make it move forward and contact the primer. Whether the hammer is pulled to the rear 1/3 or 3/4 of the way OR a serious blow from the rear on the hammer forces it forward, from say being dropped on the hammer, does not matter.
If the safety is engaged when the hammer is fully cocked it rotates the raised part on the safety barrel into the path of the hammer so as the sear is tripped allowing the hammer to fall it will strike the raised part of the safety barrel and NOT the firing pin, hence the description "hammer block". And when the safety is engaged, it also blocks the firing pin from moving forward by trapping it in the safety barrel. go here,

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4809&hilit=accident ... rge#p45895

to see pictures which will illustrate, hence the description "firing pin safety". However, once the safety is rotated to "fire" then the firing pin is free to move and has the ability to move far enough under it's own momentum to contact the primer which can cause a discharge. However, this requires the entire gun to move very suddenly and with much force as the firing pin is light and has to move very fast in order to have enough energy to detonate the primer. This gun is not designed with and has no "firing pin block" which blocks ALL movement of the firing pin UNLESS the trigger has been pulled / rotated through a complete arc.
I know this is long and sounds very much like a lecture, which it is NOT intended to be, but descriptive names can be tossed about all too easily in the wrong context causing misunderstandings of design/ function which can cause serious problems. Understanding exactly WHY your firearm works is as important as HOW it works to your safety.
I hope this helps all. Thank you and Good Night Miss Trixie, wherever you are.

[Ketchman]

And damned if I did not forget one important thing. The P-64 has had the same decocker/ hammer block/ firing pin safety slide mounted safety since the initial production until production ended.

[Trooper joe]

I can confirm that a '76 also has the rebounding hammer. Unless the hammer is cocked all the way back (at which point the only way to release it is to pull the trigger, or perhaps drop it while the hammer is fully cocked), the hammer is blocked from striking the firing pin.

Visually I can see this happening, and the pencil test also confirms there is no FP contact unless the hammer is fully cocked and trigger is pulled. The only movement I observed in the pencil when releasing the hammer after partial cocking is from the hammer hitting the rebound stop and causing the whole pistol to move in your hand slightly. If I held on real tight this movement went away.

Note that even pulling the trigger and then pulling the hammer partway back did not defeat the rebounding hammer mechanism. It has to be fully cocked.

I am tending to agree that perhaps older models do not have rebounding hammers, and this may have been one of the changes/improvements that made its way into the design over the years.

Well snailman153624, you are correct. I just checked my 1976 manufactured P-64 again with the pencil test. The pencil does not move when you release the hammer after slightly pulling it back if you leave the trigger alone. When you fire the gun with the hammer cocked and by pulling the trigger, the pencil goes flying.

I even put the safety on (on the slide) which I know locks the firing pin in place (and Ketchman I am talking about my gun having a hammer safety in the frame and am not referring a firing pin block) and them released a slightly pulled back hammer, the pencil did not move.

Maybe those of us who have an earlier than 1976 made P-64, should check to see if they have a rebounding hammer.

I really am starting to believe that the latest P-64's (not sure what year they stopped making them) had a rebounding hammer which facilitated the activation of the spring loaded hammer block, and the earlier ones did not have this system.

Trooper Joe

[Trooper joe]

Oh, and one more comment. Please refer to the photo's I posted in my OP. I am talking about a hammer block in the frame located just in front of the hammer, not the firing pin lock that is only activated when the slide mounted safety lever/drum assembly is put on safe.

[snailman153624]

Ketchman, while I appreciate the effort, I must disagree on one point. The hammer on the 76 is blocked from striking the firing pin unless fully cocked and the trigger is pulled, even with the safety off. This has nothing to do with the safety, and everything to do with the sear and hammer. Two totally different mechanisms. As trooper points out, the rebounding hammer mechanism is inside the frame, the safety/decocker is part of the slide.

[Trooper joe]

Just found a manual for the P-64 at:

http://www.tnguns.com/shop/manuals/P64manual.pdf

On page 5 there is a list of data entitled:

TECHNICAL DATA OF PISTOL AND CARTRIDGE

Next to an item entitled "safeties" is printed:

Manual: trigger bar block, firing pin block, loaded chamber indicator
6 round
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I believe "firing pin block" was a typo and it should say "firing pin lock" as I believe we all agree on.

As snailman153624 points out:
Ketchman, while I appreciate the effort, I must disagree on one point. The hammer on the 76 is blocked from striking the firing pin unless fully cocked and the trigger is pulled, even with the safety off. This has nothing to do with the safety, and everything to do with the sear and hammer. Two totally different mechanisms. As trooper points out, the rebounding hammer mechanism is inside the frame, the safety/decocker is part of the slide.

We may have a situation where when one of our P-64's fire by only pulling back the hammer a little and then release it (as described by some of the posters) that that gun is defective. I don't know if one can remove this hammer block (I certainly am not going to try with my gun) or damage it by reassembling it improperly.

Very interesting topic gang. Thanks for all the imput.

Trooper Joe

[robhic]

I'm feeling like a doofus here! Are "we" saying that the guns are, or are NOT safe to carry with the rotating, slide-mounted safety/decocker in the 'OFF' position - red dot visible? Sorry to be the slow guy in the class but I'd like the option to be able to carry my P-64 with a 6+1 load-out and not worry about wounding myself or my clothing if possible! I don't like that I have to put the gun off of "safe" to fire it as it's just one more step.

As Curly1 and I finally agreed on, I'd rather have a GLOCK with 10+1 or 15+1 and NO safety to fool with. But, on occasion it might be neat to carry the P-64 without worrying about personal safety. So what seems to be the general concensus? Carry with one in the chamber, safety OFF = OK. Or one in the chamber safety ON = ONLY way to go? I'm not holding anybody responsible, just looking for a simple answer (I am, after all, a simple man...) for sometimes carry use. Thanks for dumbing things down for me.

[Trooper joe]

I was just thinking after my last post, I think I am in error and the writer of that manual is correct (it was not a typo when the word "block" was used concerning the firing pin safety feature).

When you rotate the slide safety mechanism to safe (red dot not showing/lever in the down position) it does indeed "block" the firing pin from being struck by the hammer. It also "locks" the firing pin in place. (I just checked mine again to verify this.)

ROBHIC in regards to your question, "Are "we" saying that the guns are, or are NOT safe to carry with the rotating, slide-mounted safety/decocker in the 'OFF' position - red dot visible?", I believe that some of these P-64's need to be carried with the safety lever in the down position (red dot not showing). I would suggest doing the "pencil test" as described several times in this thread, to see if you do have a functioning hammer "block system".

I still believe that some of these earlier guns were different (simply do not have a hammer block assembly in the frame) rather than that so many were defective.

Thanks again gang.

Trooper Joe