Concealed Carry Comparison

[The Only Sarge]

On another gun forum I provided a size comparison of the P64 and the KelTec PF9. Concealed carry and size was the subject. I submit it here for your observation(s).

[Legally Armed]

Interesting. Used to have a PF-9, hated it (awful trigger). My memory is that it's larger than my p-64's, and your photos show that to be marginally true.

Of course, you really can't compare 7 shots of 9x18 to 8 shots of 9mm+p. PF-9 owns there. However, practical accuracy with a PF-9 for anything but the first shot is pathetic compared to the P-64, of course.

[Docmow1]

Great pictures. Thanks. A few weeks back I was taking a look at the Kel Tec and for me, the feel was all wrong. It was much harder to hold than the P 64 and wasn't balanced. In my book, the P 64 wins on all counts except the sights. But then again, I'm not going to be shooting deer with it, so does it really matter?

[The Only Sarge]

I think the KelTec is a great design. Right on the bleeding edge of accurate/dependable due the caliber/weight/size of the thing....but a good design. The issue I have is simple...their manufacturing processes is a joke.

They went with the WalMart business plan...make something cheap enough and people will buy it....regardless of the quality.

The KelTec fans will tell you they are not a range gun and you should have to expect to :
1. Take it out of the box and do all the machining deburring/refinishing yourself.
2. Load it with only very specific 9mm weight/power/brand ammo.
3. Only hold it in a perfect grip/stance found at the gun range.
4. Expect failures and keep on going to break it in for 500 rounds.
5. After all the above if one fails to fire/eject/jam they will tell you "all guns do it".
6. Look how cheap it is!!!!
7. Must be kept clean and lubed to museum quality.

After all this they will also tell you it is for concealed carry. Not to be shot much.

No thanks. My CCW gun will fire every time all the time with any type of (proper caliber) ammo. One handed, two handed, upside down.

I own a dozen+/- KelTecs. A very small percentage of my overall gun collection. Grandkids use 'em to blast away at ant hills. My KelTec .32/.308 and P-11 are pretty reliable and shoot good. The PF-9's are a total joke as for reliability. I got the 3 or 4 PF-9's to shoot a couple of hundred rounds before a "new" problem pops up. Then I get to call KelTec and start the parts replacement merry go round exercise.

The reason KelTec has the warranty/customer service they have is simple. They have squat for quality control......and this method of customer support saves them money. I bet most KelTec owners just sell theirs or throw it in a drawer somewhere to rot and never post/call.... nothing.

Sorta went off didn't I?

In comparison...my Glocks, S&W's and of course my C&R pistols....I took em out of the box...ran a patch or two through 'em....cleaned the "gunk" of the C&R's and they all have gone bang bang bang for thousands of rounds with not any issues whatsoever.

I'll take any of my P-64's and bet my life on it....before I will take any KelTec PF9 and hope/pray it may fire and not jam.

[lklawson]

The KelTec fans will tell you they are not a range gun and you should have to expect to :
1. Take it out of the box and do all the machining deburring/refinishing yourself.
2. Load it with only very specific 9mm weight/power/brand ammo.
3. Only hold it in a perfect grip/stance found at the gun range.
4. Expect failures and keep on going to break it in for 500 rounds.
5. After all the above if one fails to fire/eject/jam they will tell you "all guns do it".
6. Look how cheap it is!!!!
7. Must be kept clean and lubed to museum quality.

To be fair, Kel Tec fans do not tell you to expect this.

At best, these are exaggerations.

While some of the statements are sometimes true, most aren't in most of the cases.

This said, as the owner of 3 Kel Tec CC handguns and a regular over on TheKTOG.org

Shall we take these one at a time?

"1. Take it out of the box and do all the machining deburring/refinishing yourself."

No. Not usually. Though many do a "fluff and buff" to start with, particularly "old timers," most KT firearms work fine "out of the box." Further, a standard break in period will achieve the same result as a F&B. The F&B is simply done in order to skip the break in.

"2. Load it with only very specific 9mm weight/power/brand ammo."

No. Most KT handguns work fine with most ammunition. In my own handguns, the only issues I've ever had was with 147 gr. Ranger ammunition in one and with some underpowered "gun show special" reloads.

"3. Only hold it in a perfect grip/stance found at the gun range."

Again, no. However, as such a small-framed automatic with such a short recoil stroke, it is important to hold a firm grip to avoid failures to load due to "limp wristing." All automatics can be vulnerable to limp wristing but small framed, short recoil stroke autos are more so.

"4. Expect failures and keep on going to break it in for 500 rounds."

Again, no. The typical "break in" number of rounds recommended is 100-200.

"5. After all the above if one fails to fire/eject/jam they will tell you 'all guns do it'."

No, usually the advice given runs the gamut of "first make sure there are no issues with the ammunition or grip," go through some "home gunsmith" optional offerings, and usually ends with "but you can always send it back to KT for repair."

"6. Look how cheap it is!!!!"

So?

"7. Must be kept clean and lubed to museum quality."

Again, no. While it is true that firearms, particularly light, small-framed, short recoil stroke autos should be kept clean and lubed in the right places, the truth is that these are often pocket guns and pick up all the lint and debris associated with pocket carry yet continue, for the vast majority, to work just fine even in "pocket carry" condition.

While I won't make the spurious claim that KT firearms don't have an occasional glitch, or even the occasional lemon, I will point out that this is true of all firearms, and indeed, all manufactured items. That said, the laundry list of complaints is exaggerated.

It sounds to me as if you were one of the (comparatively few) unlucky people to get a KT firearm which had some issues. I understand the frustration. But let's be fair.

I've had many firearms in my CC rotation and all of them have been reliable (or they wouldn't be there). My current rotation includes all three of my KT's (P11, PF9, P32 - as appropriate for my needs and desires at the time), as well as my P64 and my CZ52. The only reason my P64 is in the rotation is because it is classier than the PF9 with which it competes. The PF9 is smaller in every dimension, lighter, and packs one more round of a more powerful ammunition. It just doesn't have the pure class of my P64 with wood grips.

I have a CZ82 which might, one day enter the rotation except that, again, it competes with a KT handgun and loses in terms of size, weight, and ammunition "power." While my P11 has been happy with all the brands of range ammo I've thrown at it and the Hornady Critical Defense "SD" ammo I feed it, the same cannot be said of my CZ82. While the '82 ate my typical SD rounds, and most of the range fodder, well, it choked on the Wolf 109 gr. FMJ every time. Wouldn't feed it at all.

So, yeah, lots of guns seem as if they have their own personality, likes and dislikes.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

[The Only Sarge]

I challenge anybody to go to any KelTec forum and read the PF9 section for themselves and come away with your own conclusion. I have merely regurgitated the standard responses. Fluff and buff is the same thing as completing manufacturing processes. Ammo is always called out and any user with a problem is told to sand this or file that, use federal 115g or they are limp wrisitng.
Exaggerations? I don't think so friend.

I could care less what weapon a person chooses. I stated my own observations and experience.

I assume you are saying KelTecs are reliable/dependable right out of the box and all this was made up?

I stand by all my statements.

[mike1050]

I assume you are saying KelTecs are reliable/dependable right out of the box and all this was made up?

I have a Kel-Tec P-11 and has been flawless since day 1 "right out of the box". I have ran over 3,000+ rounds through it in the past 3 years. You name an ammo and odds are its been ran though it. I am not saying anything is made up, but there's a chance that any new firearm brand has a chance to malfunction, or even have flaws missed by the factory.

I didn't see anyone say it was made up.

[The Only Sarge]

I also have a P11 and I have posted in here a few times I find it dependable. The PF9's on the other hand I do not.

To challenge those commonly found (on KelTec forums) statements is silly and absolutely indefensible. Again....I challenge anybody to spend 5 minutes on a KelTec forum and say my statements are not accurate.

Sure there is a % of KelTecs out of the box that are fine. There is a higher than industry average % of KelTecs that are not. I base this on my extensive experience with KelTecs and I am not talking about one or two.

Oh I digress....who cares.....

[mike1050]

I also have a P11 and I have posted in here a few times I find it dependable. The PF9's on the other hand I do not.

To challenge those commonly found (on KelTec forums) statements is silly and absolutely indefensible. Again....I challenge anybody to spend 5 minutes on a KelTec forum and say my statements are not accurate.

Sure there is a % of KelTecs out of the box that are fine. There is a higher than industry average % of KelTecs that are not. I base this on my extensive experience with KelTecs and I am not talking about one or two.

Oh I digress....who cares.....

I just spoke to my brother in law, and he has a PF9 and also has had alot of trouble with his as well. He said he has sent it in for repair 3 times, and on the third trip to Kel-Tec they sent him a new gun and he was still experiencing some of the issues. I just thought I'd throw a little support your way on this one Sarge.

Mike

[robalan]

I have a Ruger Lc9 and it is the same size as the P-64. I was actually hoping the Crimson laser would fit, but the trigger guard is a little different shape.

[The Only Sarge]

[quote=mike1050]I just spoke to my brother in law, and he has a PF9 and also has had alot of trouble with his as well. He said he has sent it in for repair 3 times, and on the third trip to Kel-Tec they sent him a new gun and he was still experiencing some of the issues. I just thought I'd throw a little support your way on this one Sarge.

Mike
[/quote]

1. No. You do not even have a Brother In Law
2. No. If you did even have a BIL he doesn't even have a PF9.
3. No. All PF9's are perfect out of the box.

LOL....Nowhere is it written everybody has to agree with me......thanks for the back Mike.....nuff of this silly KelTec talk

[lklawson]

I challenge anybody to go to any KelTec forum and read the PF9 section for themselves and come away with your own conclusion.

Here, let me help: The Kel Tec Owner's Group PF9 forum. I've been there for a while and haven't seen the snarkiness you are referring to.

I have merely regurgitated the standard responses. Fluff and buff is the same thing as completing manufacturing processes.

In your opinion. Which is not shared by everyone.

Ammo is always called out

Ammo is usually suggested as one possibility as part of the diagnostic process. This is because experience has shown ammo, and "limp wristing," are frequently the cause of certain common feed issues.

and any user with a problem is told to sand this or file that,

Not so much. No.

Exaggerations? I don't think so friend.

Free country.

I assume you are saying KelTecs are reliable/dependable right out of the box and all this was made up?

I am saying that most Kel Tecs, including the PF9 which you have specified, including the PF9 I purchased, are trouble free from the box. I acknowledge that a comparative few have issues. Very few people post on a forum intended to help users with problems about how trouble free their firearm is. A few, but not many.

Again, I reiterate my apologetics to your above listed complaints. Most people asking for advice are not told to do a fluff and buff. The recommended break-in is considerably less than 500 rounds. Most PF9's run fine with most ammo while WWB and some 147 gr. ammo is recommended against by the user community. A "perfect gun range grip" is not required but a "firm," "locked wrist" grip is; the same as for any other auto. Home-smithing suggestions are optional, for those who like/want to do it and returns to the factory are considered superior. The firearm is not expected to be kept "museum quality" in order to operate.

I understand that you are frustrated with your sample of the gun and it is understandable that you would vent your frustration.

However, after having lurked TheKTOG for a good long while and then participating for a few years, I simply have not seen the responses to complaints you are presenting as any sort of standard operating procedure.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

[The Only Sarge]

We have enough anti-gun folks out there that love us to argue amongst ourselves. I am not going to do it. You and I can agree to disagree and continue to support one another and the hobby together.

[lklawson]

We have enough anti-gun folks out there that love us to argue amongst ourselves. I am not going to do it. You and I can agree to disagree and continue to support one another and the hobby together.

Fair enough.

See you on the firing line.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

[Legally Armed]

I had a PF9 that had issues right out of the box. FTE at least once a mag. Kel-tec replaced the extractor, and it then only FTE'd once every 4-5 mags. Sold that sucker. I note that the trigger was awful.

Later bought a P11 from a friend for $50. It worked fine, but the trigger was beyond awful. It felt like the standard P64 DA trigger before a spring swap

No thanks. No more kel-tec's for me.

To the guy with a cz-82 that jams with 109gr FMJ ammo... uh... that's too heavy for 9x18. The bullet shape is probably weird, causing the jam. Sorry, but to me, a comparison between a P11 and an '82 is laughable. If you can shoot a P11 half as well as an '82, my hat is off to you, because that's impressive. Your average shooter, however, will shoot an '82 MUCH better.