the truth about trimming 9mm luger to 9x18 mak?

[big54r]

I know this probably has been discussed here before but I didn't find what I was looking for so here goes...

this past weekend while loading up some SD ammo one of the guy's in our group who has exstensive reloading experience commented that cutting down 9mm luger brass 1mm to make 9x18 brass was a no-no and shouldn't be done.

The comment got my attention but seeing as we where all busy loading ammo I really didn't get to delve into his reasoning, rightly or wrongly, before we all left.

Know I would like all of you here with your experience cutting down 9mm luger brass into 9x18 mak brass what your experience is doing this and are you concerned in any manner about the process or results?

Is there a reason that we shouldn't trim the 9mm luger brass that 1mm to make 9x18mak brass?
what gives?

I think one of the main reason's for not trimming was the taper>>>

[juniustaylor]

That guy is kind of a turd IMO. Not to be rude. People do funny things with brass all the time (wildcat cartridges). The taper is very minute. It is something to be dealt with though. You've got a couple ways of trimming the brass. Some folks like to use a Lee 9x19 case gage and cut 1mm off the post so it will fit in the neck of the case and trim it that 1mm. I, personally, use the 9x18 Lee case gage. I expand the necks using the Mak expander die until the gage fits in the neck and does not bind. I then trim them. What remaining amount of taper left will be fire-formed to the gun's chamber. Some folks say you should reduce the load a tad as there will be slightly less case capacity due to this remaining "taper". It's really not enough to mess with and if you load light - medium loads, it will be perfectly safe. Also, ponder this. The SAAMI spec on 9x19 Luger is ~36,000 psi. There is no known limit for the Makarov other than it is in the lower 20,000 psi range. So, the Luger brass is a bit stronger, probably even after the tiny bit of stretching required to get it to accept the .363" bullet. Who knows, he probably said it to keep people who don't know what they're doing from screwing with it and somehow blowing themselves up. People have been doing this process for YEARS way before Mak brass showed up on the market.

Keep this brass separate, and mark the headstamps with a marker of some color so you know which are which.

FWIW.

[wyo-man]

juniustaylor is correct. People have using this technique for years when 9x18 brass was not available. Starline started making 9x18 brass with their own headstamp, but it is only available when they make a batch of it. Check their website www.starlinebrass.com . Probably less expensive to modify 9x19.

wyo-man

[juniustaylor]

With the Starline brass you're looking at 16 - 18 cents if you buy it from Midway.... that's not figuring in the shipping cost. Otherwise, you can get plentiful once-fired 9mm Luger brass for free or for cheap at pennies per case. Yes, it does require some time and effort on the reloader's part to trim the Luger brass to work, but it's worth it as you can make it yourself when Starline seems to run out of the stuff.

I guess it comes down to what your time is worth to you. If you don't mind spending an evening cutting down some brass while watching television etc. then that's great. If your time is valuable and you don't feel you have enough, then you'll want to buy the Starline brass and be done with it. Either way is fine.

[fish]

Cutting down 9mm luger brass 1mm to make 9x18 brass is a no-no and shouldn't be done if you don't know what you're doing.

Cutting off 1mm is not all there is to it. The key is to remove the taper from the 9mm Luger case. If you start with sized 9mm Luger brass (either factory new or once fired then sized in a 9mm Luger sizing die), you will never get there. Starting with once fired 9mm Luger brass, the first thing you do is flare the case mouth to a rediculous degree in the 9mm Mak flaring die. Then size in the 9mm Mak sizing die. Then trim to a length somewhere between .700" - .713".

The people who think you can't do this always get hung up on the taper. There is a way.....

[big54r]

thanx guy's for the response...

fish I like your concise explanation and tutorial cuz it seems to take the "pause" out of the equation.
It also seems that your way may be easiest and more precise but as jt said there are many techniques to this process.

jt your technique seems really fast if done right...
I don't have any experience case length gages but will have to get one or several.

does the difference in head size matter much...

I used starline brass for the reloads but they are $$$$ and I will feel better using 9mm luger pick-up range brass for my budget.

[smbob]

Sorry, but I disagree with that guy too. It takes a little work to to get the cases down to 18mm,
but it is way cheaper than going with Starline 9X18, which by the way isn't always available.
I have had great results using trimmed down 9X19 Luger brass in all of my 9X18's and will
continue to do so. Some might see trimming Luger brass down as work. I see it as therapy.
Quite rewarding too when things work out and you come up with a great shooting 9X18 load
that you made yourself from scratch.

Robert

[juniustaylor]

Headspace is roughly the same but does not really matter as Autos headspace on the case mouth which is why you don't want to ever roll crimp them. A light taper crimp is sufficient. The big difference that can cause some issues is the width of the extraction groove in the case. The Makarov has a wide area from the start of the gap, to the head. So, in some Mak. caliber guns, the Luger brass can cause hangups as the extractor may not engage the groove enough.

Fish is certainly right... it does come down to eliminating that taper and that's where some people probably screw up. Still doesn't make it a no-no... just means being smart and thinking outside the box. Obviously you cannot force a .363" bullet in a spot for a .355". That's almost .010". You'll end up with smashed in case mouths and no reloads.

[juniustaylor]

big54r, I like the Lee case length gages. They're super easy to use. You can chuck the case holder part in a drill for faster trimming. I use the trimmer with the ball grip. You just screw the gage into the cutter. Insert the gage into the case mouth and the "pin" part of it goes through the flash hole and butts against the case holder when enough brass has been trimmed off. It'll then be the appropriate length.

Lee makes the pins soft so, you have to inspect the gage after every few hundred to make sure it's not out of limits which would trim the case a bit shorter. You just have to buy another gage to replace it. I really like them. I have several different calibers worth, and I hardly have any money invested in them. While the hand lathe type trimmer would be nice, they are very expensive and usually you have to buy the pilots/arbors separate which is a few dollars a piece. So, it's entirely up to the reloader to decide which method they prefer to try. I'm happy with the Lee gages.

[fish]

+1 on the Lee case length gauge. You need the caliber specific gauge (comes with the shell holder), the lock stud, and the cutter (or preferably, the cutter with ball grip).

http://www.leeprecision.com/html/catalog/casecon.html

Go with the 9mm Luger stud and file down the pin as needed to get to length. I've found the longer end of the Mak limit (.713") works better than the shorter end of the limit (.700"). The Lee 9mm Mak case gauge trims closer to .700". Both will wear over time so it makes sense to give yourself a little room for wear, but also the Luger stud is a little easier to get into the mouth of the flared 9mm Luger case. The Mak stud tends to be a bit tight, even after flaring.

The Lee case length tools are great, they are low cost, highly effective and get the job done. I did end up upgrading to a Lyman universal trimmer, and I'm glad I did, but for the price you can't beat the Lee stuff, it works!

[normsutton]

I use lee case length trimmers, in just about ever thing I reload, i cut one case to length , use that case to set up my lymen case trimmer




NORM

[juniustaylor]

Off topic... Norm, that looks like a Harbor Freight drill. I have one of those also in the 14.4V kind.

[normsutton]

jun
they are good and cheap drills

NORM

[surfzombie]

Here is a quick video showing the proper way or expanding first and then resizing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yrmgh3S ... re=related

[gunneyrabbit]

Norm made a believer out of me, I've loaded thousands of them with no problems.
GR