Getting to know the P64 (longish)

oakchas · Post by **oakchas** » July 17th, 2009, 11:24 am

Please forgive the length of this discussion, but I'm trying to nail down alot in one post. Kinda thinking-out-loud and looking for feedback.

I thought about putting this in the carry gear section, but I really think it's general in nature and about the P64.

I've recently purchased 3 P64's from I.O. inc. I am pleased with the guns, though I think only one of them may in fact have been unissued, new as claimed. (The guns might be new, two of three holsters were not and one came with a cleaning rod for a CZ 82 or something else.)

I took them to the range without cleaning and (oops, I know, I shoulda cleaned 'em first)... and they all went through one clip flawlessly. Very accurate at 10 yards and the DA pull is a bear, but I knew that going in. The DA pull is so bad that staying on target is nearly impossible.. SA is good, if gritty (prolly a cleaning issue), and a little light.

All that said, as a CC pistol; this little unit has alot of things going for it.

Overall Size
Thinness
Heft
Price
Accuracy

Some cons:

That awful DA pull in 6+1, uncocked/safety off
6+1
Magazine management

I am not a gun expert by any stretch of the imagination, nor am I a "gunfighter," LEO, or thug (though I have had both professional and personal permits to carry in the past) I have some reasonable concerns I'd like to discuss regarding this weapon as a weapon of choice for CC.

Let's talk about the cons in a defensive situation.

1: DA pull can be improved with Wolff springs, I'm getting some, and we'll find out if it's enough of an improvement. If I understand correctly, the lighter trigger springs can also lighten up SA pull... Correct? If so, SA pull is awfully "light" now... and the disparity between DA and SA is a little disconcerting... making for inconsistency in shooting.

2: 6+1 should be enough in a defensive situation. But even LEOs are woefully inaccurate at 6 feet (I've seen reports of an average 25% In ACTUAL "shootouts"). And they get ALOT of range time; much more than we citizens do (on average). So, is 6+1 really enough in the high stress situation of having to actually use your pistol in a situation?

3: If 6+1 is not enough in your SD/HD situation, changing the mag is a bit of a challenge with these guns. According to the Home page link to the comparison between the P64 and the Walther PPK

Magazine changes were also much easier to accomplish with the PPK, but this is largely a range-time thing, as magazine changes are statistically rare in a fight.

Okay, it's rare, and it's a practice thing, maybe. I think a "tactical" mag change after 2 or 3 shots from the primary in a situation might be a safe way to go... the problem is the (in my mind, and in my hands too) the mag change is not as ergonomically accomplished as it is on a side button release pistol.
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Those are my thoughts, and I'm giving a lot of consideration to this pistol and others for CC. I realize that alot of what I'm talking about here is subjective. Well, except for the DA trigger pull.

It's not that I don't like the pistol... I do. But I'm wondering if it's the best option for CC (for me) and I'd really like to hear others thoughts on these points.

Thanks for a great site!

Charlie

electross · Post by **electross** » July 17th, 2009, 2:06 pm

Oakchase,
I guess the term"concealed" is what needs to be considered along with all the other things you have mentioned. The P64 has a nice slim profile and is very accurate. These are good things. The round is on the small side. This should get some responses. Place a .40 SW next to a 9X18. Which would you rather get hit with if there was no choice in the matter? You would probably pick the 9X18. So would the bad guy. But thinking about some of the very nice CC handguns out there chambered in .40SW. They are larger. Magazine potential next comes into play. Well, all I can say is, lets hope you never have to use your choice in a situation. You couldn't give me enough bullets in a tight spot so you just need to pick it according to your needs. The larger calibers do conceal well in the winter when you may have a coat etc. So maybe you need to use a 1911.

chuwee81 · Post by **chuwee81** » July 17th, 2009, 2:22 pm

IMO i am going to leave the trigger alone. Just get some snap caps and practice with it. Like you said, the SA is already nice and crisp as it is. I let friends try it in both DA and SA and they're amazed at how nice the SA is. I can't imagine it being any lighter. WITH THAT BEING SAID, when i ordered a heavier recoil spring from JG, they sent me the mainspring as well, sooooo i might just have to try it

. YMMV

Also a lot of people are comfortable carrying their snubbies with only 5 or 6 rds. I don't have CHL yet butg if and when i do, i'd feel comfortable with P64's 6+1.

oakchas · Post by **oakchas** » July 17th, 2009, 2:48 pm

Electross, I hear all of that... regarding the size of the round. As to whether or not I'd want to be hit by one or the other... I'd take the 40... Just kill me quick. ;D

On the other hand, some comparisons of rounds that I've read say that the 9X18 (or the nearly equivalent .380) is pretty deadly.

Well, all I can say is, lets hope you never have to use your choice in a situation. You couldn't give me enough bullets in a tight spot so you just need to pick it according to your needs.

This is my concern... I have been in only one situation where I had to "brandish" my weapon in order to defuse a situation... that's the closest I ever came... and It was a real adrenaline starter... I can't imagine the intensity of a true "gunfight" where more is better... but it is a definite consideration.

Chuwee,

I'll agree that the SA pull is acceptable (not so much crisp as it is light). But With a SA/DA pistol with a hammer like the P64, or a 1911 for that matter... I'd just as soon carry 6+1 Condition 1 and use the DA as my "safety."

The DA pull on the 64 is "quite a safety," to be sure.
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The slimness/size of this weapon is a definite advantage for CC.. And, I'm weighing all the other pros and cons to determine if it is the best for me...

As in all things, your mileage may vary... and I'd really like to hear more thought on the subject...

Thanks,

Charlie

Post by **dfunk** » July 17th, 2009, 3:57 pm

Charlie,
First - welcome. We're glad to have you.
I think your concerns are justified and I would give a generous amount of consideration when making these decisions.

My take, is that you need to clean that puppy - first and foremost. The way it feels right now is not likely how it will feel after a thorough scrubdown. Things will improve, smooth out, and turn cripsy, like they should. We're not talking a comp 1911 crispy, but still, not gritty at all. Also, shoot it like it's going out of style - the break-in means a lot with this one.

You've obviously put the P64 in a list of potential contenders for your CCW weapon, so it would seem you've already made peace with the caliber.

As chuwee already said, wheelguns are still extremely popular choices for CCW, and you're looking at 6 rounds (sometimes 5). If you need to change mag after mag, after mag to get proficient with it, then so be it - I think we all need practice anyway.

4th to last in your pro list (1st post) was price - in my opinion, this shouldn't even be a consideration - it has nothing to do with it's abilities or yours, and since you already bought it, is even more moot. I can't put a price on saving and protecting my family, as I'm sure you can't, and if I shoot a $2k pistol better than a $500 (or vice versa), then the choice is obvious.

I like the P64 for it's reliability and it's concealability, not it's shear power. I've been making holsters for them for almost a year now, and I can tell you that they're thin and comfy to wear, with just the right amount of heft. They're pistols you can wear all day long, standing, driving, sitting - whatever. It's a solid choice, but if you aren't comfortable with it, for whatever reason, then I'd go another route for a primary weapon.

electross · Post by **electross** » July 17th, 2009, 7:19 pm

oakchas,
Thats funny, "kill me quick". Really, I believe the 9X18 is enough gun for concealed carry. There are plenty of .380's out there doing the job. A 9X18 is better still. The size of a P64 is perfect for CC. I agree with dickfunk. Shoot that thing. There are all kinds of quick trips to the smooth trigger but nothing replaces practice which you already know. I shot a bunch of Brown Bear and Silver Bear through mine. Plus I did some buffing around on the obvious friction area's of the trigger. I also have a shooting glove which works for you if the recoil starts to bother you. Its a fun handgun, the blueing is great, its cheap, plenty of ammo available, I'm sure it will get the job done when called upon. But if your heart says go bigger on the bullet, there is some real nice stuff out there in .40 or .45. Good luck.
Dale

Post by **papabear** » July 17th, 2009, 8:37 pm

oakchas,

First welcome aboard, glad to have ya with us.

You answered your own question about cleaning it so as for your con list, I've carried one of my 5 P-64 for over 2 1/2 years now, now only have 2 but my favorite is a '76 with the triangular hammer with a clipdraw.

I don't carry it every day, but most of the time and especially in the summer. I carry 6+1 with safety off, the heavy DA that a lot talk about loosens up after 500 rds or so, and then after 1000rds even more so. I haven't change anything on any of my P-64 except the grips. For me the so called heavy DA pull acts as a safety, and the triangular hammer on my P-64 is cocked after it has been drawn, so its in a SA mode before I have to shoot. I have practiced this and point shooting time and time again till its second nature.

As for 6+1, if 7rds ain't enough then get something else, I also got the CZ82 that carries 12+1, its a tad larger but shoots 9x18.

As for magazines, I compliment you for using the word "magazine", inside joke, again practice, practice, and then practice some more, and I can promise you if you've never been shot at before you will still probably drop your second mag for never get it in the P-64 unless you are one calm and cool dude and you would be the exception. Not trying to be coy, but I've been there more than once.

Listen, learn as much as you can through practice and as much practice as you can, after all, if your planning on using any gun for CC it should be second nature to you to use it. IMO, the P-64 with a 95gr round is plenty of CC protection, sure, a 40cal or 45acp has bigger round and generally more of 'em, but can you get it out and hit anything with it. In all my experiences, the most important factor was "PLACEMENT", a .22 makes a better hit and than a 45acp miss.

Give the P-64 chance to becoming your CC, if it doesn't work out for you, then try something else, but what every you wind up with be sure to Practice, Practice, Practice.

Papa

james832 · Post by **james832** » July 17th, 2009, 9:47 pm

Charles- Since you have had carry permits before, you know the value of practice and more practice. All your concerns are justified.
I too, found the magazine release to be not very handy. I was able to somewhat help this by slightly beveling the rear of the plastic bottom of the magazine, and a radius on the remaining thickness. I then opened up ,or belled, the grips around the magazine release button, I did not remove much. It did help me

wsps1990 · Post by **wsps1990** » July 17th, 2009, 10:44 pm

I had the spring detuned on mine before I ever used it. I have to admit the S/A is kind of snappy.That said, this is a real comfortable CCW to carry.

Papapear, where'd you get the camo grips and the belt clip ?

Thanks, Walt

Post by **papabear** » July 18th, 2009, 7:56 am

Hi Walt,

The belt clip is called a clipdraw that is attached to the slide by means of a glue strip that will come off and not effect the finish, the kit that comes with the ClipDraw contains a total of 5 glued strips, the actual clips attached by two screws, and if I remember right a extra set of screws comes in the kit also, here is their web site.
Note: I place the belt over the clipdraw to help retain the pistol, not necessary but that's the way I carry it either strong side or cross draw.
http://www.clipdraw.com/

The grips I got here on the P-64 board back a couple years ago from a member here called "zeeborg" we call 'em Zee Grips, he has posts in the Buy-Sell-Trade forum here, you can contact him either through that forum or by PM, he makes really nice resin/plastic grips, I have had a total of 6 of them myself. Note: The Zee Grips lessens some of the recoil.

Hope this helps.

Papa

oakchas · Post by **oakchas** » July 20th, 2009, 10:59 am

Thanks everyone for your replies.

I'm not concerned about the power of the load... If I don't choose the P 64 for carry, I'd take the CZ 82.

I like the size of the P 64, I like the accuracy, I think the quality is there. The ergonomics are a concern. I will be trying it more extensively over the next few months...

I do think the lower power trigger springs may help, and will try them as well.

Thanks again for your input. I know that cost should not be a concern... Value however, is. And the P 64 offers a good value in a concealed pistol.

Charlie

Post by **dfunk** » July 20th, 2009, 3:45 pm

oakchas wrote:the P 64 offers a good value in a concealed pistol.

Charlie

There's about 2000 people here on this forum that would agree with you.

mikepolo841 · Post by **mikepolo841** » July 20th, 2009, 4:26 pm

You are so Very right it is a very affordable concealed pistol.. Ererybody sould have at least one!

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