P-64 Achilles heel?

[gloob]

I just bought my first P64 a couple days ago. I'm rather fond of my PA-63 (and the cost of Mak ammo!), so I figured this purchase was a no brainer. But I gotta say I am pretty annoyed with the design of this pistol. It is NOTHING like the Walther or the PA-63, and IMHO is a far worse design.

First off, I happened to bend my trigger return spring every so slightly. Now my trigger will miss a reset (WHIFF!) every now and then.

To be honest, I wasn't completely confident with the trigger from the start. I don't like how the trigger "whiffs" when the safety is on. My friend's Bersa does the same thing, and I just don't trust it. But the bent return spring made me examine the design more closely.

And my conclusion is that the design is kinda bad, IMHO. The wimpy little trigger return spring has to push up both the trigger bar and disconnector, all the way on the other side of the gun, using terrible leverage, and having only a single pivot/joint at the trigger. The rest of the bar just slides around between side/frame/grip, creating inevitable friction, esp since the spring makes it want to twist rather than lay flat. Any little thing anywhere along the way can easily stop the trigger bar from engaging the sear, particularly for the first shot after the safety is switched off. Lint, dirt, old lube, too dry, powder residue on the disconnector, small pebble between slide and top of right grip, and who knows what else?

If I could, I'd leave the firing pin block safety and remove the manual disconnect safety, completely. Hmm.. Just maybe there's a way by reshaping the back half of the disconnector?

The other thing I dislike about the trigger: it stays in the same starting position for DA or SA. I found this quite disturbing, for some reason. I really wish the trigger would set backwards a bit when the hammer is cocked, like every other DA/SA pistol and DA revolver I've ever used. As it is, with the DA pull so hard, it can be "weird" to transition to a SA trigger pull with an identical starting point. I worry that the SA trigger might one day catch me by surprise? I also don't like how the SA trigger breaks like a cap gun. But that's just subjective.

So any way, I guess I need a replacement trigger return spring. I checked buymilsurp, but no luck there. Any suggestions?

On another note, just as an FYI, it IS possible to bypass the decocker function and to have a safety, only. I don't recommend it, but it takes only a few seconds with a dremel tool if one were so inclined. The part of the safety that pressed down on the disconnector (right by one of the detents) just has to be ground down 1/16" or so.

[normsutton]

gloob

for trigger return springs go here http://www.p64resource.com/goods.php

and the safety is not really a safety its a de cocker, most of the guys I know leave it off when carrying it ,

NORM

[papabear]

gloob,

[gloob]

^^ Sorry, papabear. This is all news to me. If there's a link to an existing thread, I'd like to read it. Or perhaps a specific search term could be of help? Maybe "P-64 sux?"

normsutten: thanks! I just ordered one. You're AWESOME. I really like the low shipping price.

I am curious, do you make these yourself? I tried to modify a spare PA-63 spring I had lying around, using a torch and some primitive tempering techniques. I got it working just about as good as my bent spring, but not quite perfect. I was thinking of buying some piano wire of the right gauge to try again!

re: safety. From what I saw while I was inside there, I believe the manual safety is a pretty decent safety, even sans decocker. When turning the lever down, the firing pin is blocked by a significant chunk of steel (in addition to pushing the disconnector way down and decocking the gun).

If there is a passive firing pin safety, I don't yet perceive one. So carrying with the safety on would be my preference, at first glance.

[normsutton]

gloob
I make them myself , the hammer on the P-64 will not hit the firing pin unless the trigger is pulled,
period , if dose there is something wrong with your gun

NORM

[gloob]

Nice! Can't wait to see your handiwork!

As for safety issue, I'm not seeing any passive firing pin safety when the hammer is down and safety is off. I'm thinking of drop-safety, where the gun might land muzzle-first onto a hard object. If I'm not mistaken, the inertia of the firing pin might cause a discharge without any involvement from the hammer.

[normsutton]

gloob
the gun has a firing pin spring in it , with the de cocker on or off it doesn't lock the firing pin

NORM

[gloob]

the gun has a firing pin spring in it

Most all guns with a firing pin have a spring, including the 1911. Army testing showed the early models could fire if dropped from as little as 3 feet (if the gun landed exactly muzzle down onto solid concrete.) That's when Colt and many others started added passive firing pin safeties which were only bypassed by either the grip safety (separate from the TRIGGER/SEAR/HAMMER block grip safety) or by pulling the trigger. Albeit, some modern 1911's are still made without one, sometimes with the substitution of a titanium firing pin and stronger spring for increased safety.

AFAIC, it should be possible for the P-64 to fire if dropped - at least in theory.

Code: Select all

with the de cocker on or off it doesn't lock the firing pin

Well, you made me double check. But, indeed, mine certainly appears to lock. It's a 1971 P-64, if that makes any difference.

When the safety is in the down position,the stub that protrudes from the left rear of the firing pin is blocked from moving forward. This is easily verified with a field strip and a jeweler's screwdriver pressed to the back of the firing pin.

*The PM Mak does not have a passive firing pin safety nor a [edit] firing pin spring, and yet it passed California drop-safety testing. The Makarov is practically unique for the fact that it doesn't have a firing pin spring. This is a rarity.

**The PA-63 (along with most all modern designs) has both a firing pin spring and a passive firing pin safety. The PA-63 passive safety blocks the firing pin from moving forward unless the trigger is pulled all the way back.

[juniustaylor]

The P-64 most certainly has has a double "safety" when the lever is in the SAFE postion. It has the protusion of the safety barrel which blocks contact of the hammer to the firing pin. It also has the little stub that gloob is talking about. I noticed that a few months ago when I took mine apart for the first time. Gloob is most certainly right.

[normsutton]

gloob
at lest I got you to look ,

the P-64 is not a 1911, its much lighter , I doubt if you could get to fire even if was dropped from 12 feet,

NROM

[gloob]

Devil's advocate:

The mass of the firing pin, distance of travel of firing pin, and strength/weight of the spring are all important factors which determine at what velocity a falling gun might discharge.

If all of these factors were equal, lighter overall weight of a gun would actually make a drop-fire MORE likely. Essentially, a lighter gun could strike a lighter, softer object, and get a bigger response than a heavier gun.


Anyways, I look forward to getting this replacement spring, so I can compare it to my own. I got impatient and bought some piano wire from the hardware store. They didn't have the same thickness wire, so I went a bit thicker than stock (0.032") and made 1 less turn in the coil. This made the spring much stiffer! Rather than being half-dragged upwards,
the trigger bar jumps up to engage the sear, now. I feel just as confident in this pistol, now, as I am in my spring-making experience (which is to say, not very )

For instance, I wonder if stress-relief is really necessary? I don't want to run my oven for an hour at full power just to bake one little spring. Are your springs stress-relieved? I hope you don't mind my asking. I defer to your experience over my 1 hour of interent research, afterall.

[Weasel640]

Gloob, Ok really I think your physics are flawed.

Besides it does not matter anyway, this is why; As long as you have a decent holster with good retention, the only time you would risk dropping your P-64 is while drawing it. If you are drawing it, you'd have it on fire to shoot anyway. So if you were going to drop it, it really wouldn't matter if you had it holstered on safe or fire. A pistol holstered on safe is commonly referred to as a "dead man's gun" for good reason. It's better to use the safety as a de-cocker.

[soram]

Gloob, Ok really I think your physics are flawed.

I agree with Weasel640, Gloob. E=MC2: Mass + speed + gravity (acceleration) = inertia. That is, heavier gun = more speed + more inertia = faster firing pin speed when drop is stopped.

He (and Norm) is also right that the point is moot because of the double safety.

Ross

[gloob]

E=MC2: Mass + speed + gravity (acceleration) = inertia. That is, heavier gun = more speed + more inertia = faster firing pin speed when drop is stopped.

I'm sorry, but you are wrong. Factoring in air resistance, it's the denser gun that will accelerate faster when dropped. Considering 2 pistols made primarily of steel, they will accelerate at approximately the same rate no matter the difference in weight.

As for why I say a lighter gun is MORE likely to drop-fire, all else equal, here's an example:

Imagine you were to drive your car into a brick wall at 50mph. The car represents the P-64. The brick wall represents a rock, which the gun happens to fall on. Your cranium represents the firing pin, your arms holding the steering wheel represent the firing pin spring. The windshield represents the primer.

Chances are that the primer is going to be ignited. I.e., your head is going through the windshield, buddy, regardless how strong your arms are.

This is why the seatbelt (and the passive firing pin safety) was invented.

Now replace the car with a heavier semi truck. When it hits the brick wall, its momentum actually moves the brick wall! Result: truck +1, brick wall 0. Windshield is intact. In other words, when the heavier 1911... Scratch that. Let's use a Deagle. When your 6 pound Desert Eagle falls and lands on that rock, it doesn't immediately stop/rebound. It hammers the rock 2 inches into the dirt, softening the impact for the firing pin.

As for there being a "double safety." I'll raise you one. There's also a "half-cock" notch. Or more accurately, a "zero-cock" notch. There's plenty of safeties to prevent the hammer from hitting the firing pin. But the fact remains that the only thing stopping the firing pin from inertially striking the primer is the firing pin spring (which is limited by physics to raising the threshold for dropfire, not eliminating it) and the MANUAL safety.

[juniustaylor]

I don't quite think I understand that logic. Where's the seatbelt in this equation? Is it the safety?

Moral of the story, don't drop the gun and don't crash into brick walls with a compact Euro-car.