9x18 jhp vs. fmj

[halljt3]

Me again with another poll... I have been thinking a lot about what ammo to carry for SD, as of right now I have been using a combination of silver bear JHP & FMJ. The first round in the chamber is a JHP the rest is FMJ, I guess the theory behind this first shot knock the BG down and the rest for nice deep penetration. I know silver bear is probably not the best SD ammo out there but it has gone bang every time, and its the only reasonably priced ammunition I can find locally. I have always heard silver bears JHP having questionable expansion so I was thinking about just going with FMJ only.

I guess I really just wanted to see what yal use for SD FMJ vs. JHP... feel free to expand on you vote (what brand of ammunition and your experiences with it)

Thanks everybody.

[robalan]

I usually load the gun with a mag full of JHP and have an extra mag ready with FMJ.

[rottenrick]

Some folks say a round to be effective needs to penetrate at least 12 inches. There's a web site called 'The Box of Truth' They do all kinds of stuff. Kinda' like a 'Myth Busters' for for shooters. Check it out. It's pretty cool, lot's of on the range testing.

[boomer]

Me again with another poll... I have been thinking a lot about what ammo to carry for SD, as of right now I have been using a combination of silver bear JHP & FMJ. The first round in the chamber is a JHP the rest is FMJ, I guess the theory behind this first shot knock the BG down and the rest for nice deep penetration. I know silver bear is probably not the best SD ammo out there but it has gone bang every time, and its the only reasonably priced ammunition I can find locally. I have always heard silver bears JHP having questionable expansion so I was thinking about just going with FMJ only.

I guess I really just wanted to see what yal use for SD FMJ vs. JHP... feel free to expand on you vote (what brand of ammunition and your experiences with it)

Thanks everybody.

Number One. There is no such thing as " Knock the BG down " with any pistol of any caliber. If that were to happen the shooter would also be knocked down by the equal and opposite reaction generated.

Number Two. The human body is not tolerant to being hit and/or struck by objects and/or projectiles traveling at around 1,000 feet a second regardless of size.

It is all academic. A .22 bullet will kill just as fast, if not faster, than a .45 if put in the right place. In fact, our military 5.6 Nato is a .22 caliber FMJ.

The Soviet Army has filled many a grave with a FMJ 9x17 Kurz and 9x18 Makarov. The 7.625 mm/.32 caliber has also proven itself as a formidable military caliber for pistol rounds.

Bullets cause serous bodily injury and/or death!

What else do you really need to know about them.

[juniustaylor]

I was just letting you know a couple small errors you had on the topic (9x18 jhp vs. fmj).

In fact, our military 5.6 Nato is a .22 caliber FMJ.

I think it's 5.56 NATO. 5.56x45 if you get technical.

The 7.625 mm/.32 caliber has also proven itself as a formidable military caliber for pistol rounds.

It's 7.62x25mm. The Mauser broomstick was a 7.63 caliber. They are both practically the same round. Look identical and for the most part can actually be interchanged. However, that's an argument for another day. Supposedly you cannot shoot the 7.62x25 in the Mauser, but you can shoot 7.63 in the CZ-52 and TT's due to the high pressure of the 7.62 Tokarev. It's generating chamber pressures slightly above a .357 magnum. Anyway, some users of the Mauser report shooting the 7.62 in their guns with no affect...

I see you're awake since you replied about the safety cant topic.

I think I may take my Mosin Nagant to the indoor shooting range here and blast some rounds of Brown Bear 203 gr. SP. I may follow that up with some of those "gallery loads" with the .310" 46 gr. round balls. I am curious as to what their accuracy will be out to 50 yards. They are loaded with 4 grains of Unique pistol powder. I am hoping for around 900 - 1000 FPS but I don't have a chronograph so I guess I'll never know.
- Junius

[boomer]

Hey JT,

Yeah I am up and going at it already here in the shop. I have a 1911, piece of junk, that needs the plunger tube restaked back on the frame and another not going bang. I suspect rust and crude in the hammer spring chamber as usual. Typical Browning design flaws.

That Brown Bear stuff should be pretty darn good. I blasted off 50 rounds of FMJ in my CZ 82 and ripped a 2 in smoking hole at 15 yards. Did not see any laquor build up at all. Got 500 rounds through it with out cleaning of failure. You got to get one of these. They are accurate as you can get it. I just love to challenge those 2k plus 1911's and then blow them away. When I tell them it is a $200.00 Czech Mil Surplus shooting Russin Steel cased ammo, the look on their faces is priceless.

[juniustaylor]

Well, I meant for that to be PM up there, LOL! I definitely like the looks of the CZ-82 plus parts are more readily available for it. I've had good luck with Brown Bear in the past in my rifle. Good luck with those 1911's, hopefully you get them all bandaged up.

How good of a target pistol can a 1911 be? They don't have a fixed barrel and it just kind of wiggles around when the slide is back. Plus it's a big, slow moving round with a terrible ballistic coefficient I'm sure. However, some folks put BIG MONEY into them with fancy handfitted parts. I like shooting them for the novelty of them, but I don't expect too much accuracy out of them. I do get rather annoyed at the unpredictable brass cases that end up hitting my face. I do like the way they look though, neat design Mr. Browning came up with.

[halljt3]

Me again with another poll... I have been thinking a lot about what ammo to carry for SD, as of right now I have been using a combination of silver bear JHP & FMJ. The first round in the chamber is a JHP the rest is FMJ, I guess the theory behind this first shot knock the BG down and the rest for nice deep penetration. I know silver bear is probably not the best SD ammo out there but it has gone bang every time, and its the only reasonably priced ammunition I can find locally. I have always heard silver bears JHP having questionable expansion so I was thinking about just going with FMJ only.

I guess I really just wanted to see what yal use for SD FMJ vs. JHP... feel free to expand on you vote (what brand of ammunition and your experiences with it)

Thanks everybody.

Number One. There is no such thing as " Knock the BG down " with any pistol of any caliber. If that were to happen the shooter would also be knocked down by the equal and opposite reaction generated.

Number Two. The human body is not tolerant to being hit and/or struck by objects and/or projectiles traveling at around 1,000 feet a second regardless of size.

It is all academic. A .22 bullet will kill just as fast, if not faster, than a .45 if put in the right place. In fact, our military 5.6 Nato is a .22 caliber FMJ.

The Soviet Army has filled many a grave with a FMJ 9x17 Kurz and 9x18 Makarov. The 7.625 mm/.32 caliber has also proven itself as a formidable military caliber for pistol rounds.

Bullets cause serous bodily injury and/or death!

What else do you really need to know about them.

My question had nothing to do with 9x18 effectiveness. All I was asking is what do you use fmj or jhp? and your reason's behind it? I know that a .22 will be just as effective as a .45 with proper shot placement... but on the other hand when that adrenaline is pumping and you accidentally shoot the bad guy in the arm what do you think is going to more damage, and possibly slow him down faster the .22 or the .45?
The human body also is not tolerant to being punched in the face, and with the proper punch it can be just as effective as a .45 but I think I would rather stick with my handgun.

So again I am trying to figure out what ammunition I want to use. So I figured I would see what yal use to help me make a decision.
Sorry for any confusion.

[juniustaylor]

I think this will be of some info to you halljt3. These are all JHP, no FMJ's.
http://www.brassfetcher.com/var9x18mm.html
His best penetrator was Silver Bear JHP.
Silver Bear 115gr JHP. Impacted at 993 ft/sec, penetrated to 12.6" (corrected). Average diameter was 0.513".

I'd personally go with JHP. FMJ's could over penetrate and make their way to a bystander. With the JHP's, they'd penetrate and do some damage. By the time they exitted, they should have expended all their energy and become inert at that point if they didn't remain in the perpetrator. Also, I would guess if you missed, they would probably shatter on impact easier and become less hazardous than FMJ.

Some folks are just worried that they may not get the desired penetration with a JHP.

I did find your "punch in the face" comment rather amusing. I got a good chuckle, thanks for that. I think the Silver Bear could be a winner if it had consistent results.

FMJ probably wouldn't be my first pick in an urban area or with other people around. The tester in that article reported:
Sellier & Bellot 95gr FMJ. Impacted at 965 ft/sec, penetrated 16.0" in ballistic gelatin, 14" of polyester fiber. Bullet was recovered undeformed, 15 yards beyond the polyester fiber box.

[boomer]

My personal opinion is that the .45 cal handgun is the worst that can be used for self defense. Single action and totally unreliable. That is why the military went away form them.

That said, ball ammunition is all I use. S&B 95 grn FMJ for carry and Silver Bear or Brown Bear for plinking!

The auto loading pistol was designed around round nose ball ammunition for function and reliability and we have won several wars with it and are not doing too bad in the present ones with it.

I would never even consider any type of over pressured hot round in a Mil Surpus pistol that is over 30 years old. That is just not good sense to me.

[juniustaylor]

Here's another interesting article. It's a bit tricky to find what you're looking for, but scroll through and browse it for what it's worth. No extensive info for the Makarov caliber. However, there is good information for 9mm Luger. The author reports:
The 9 mm is the world's most popular pistol cartridge. In FMJ, with a one shot stopping success of only 63%, the 9 mm is not a superlative manstopper. Use ball ammunition for practice only. Use JHP for self defense. He says the JHP to have a 79-91% one shot stopping power depending on the cartridge. I think that could speak volumes over the 63%.
http://www.internetarmory.com/handgunammo.htm

IMO the FMJ being used in combat may not be the "best" option, however, since that's all the US Military can use, they have to make do with it. Plus, in a combat zone I don't think you're too worried about wounding others in a skirmish since they're probably enemies as well so you'd be killing two with one bullet if it exitted one and penetrated someone behind that person. ?? Theoretical I guess.

Here's a wiki article on FMJ.
[url]tp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_metal_jacket_bullet[/url]

Look at the Advantages and Disadvantages area of the article.

Here's a wiki article on JHP.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JHP
Author writes this:
Despite the ban on military use, hollow-point bullets are one of the most common types of civilian and police ammunition, due largely to the reduced risk of bystanders being hit by over-penetrating or ricocheted bullets, and the increased speed of incapacitation. In many jurisdictions, even ones such as the United Kingdom, where expanding ammunition is generally prohibited, it is illegal to hunt certain types of game with ammunition that does not expand. Some target ranges forbid full metal jacket ammunition, due to its greater tendency to damage metal targets and backstops.

I'd like to look into the reason why NATO forbids the JHPs.

[boomer]

There are many opinions indeed. Mine is based on first hand knowledge and personal experience. I am not saying it is the best or the worst. I have seen it work on several occasions. I also would never rely on a single shot either. If I ever have to use a pistol in self defense, I will fire two and two more as I back away. The last two are for when it gets close and personal....

[juniustaylor]

The Hague Declaration prohibits “the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope that does not entirely cover the core or is pierced with incisions.” While the United States has not ratified The Hague Declaration, the United States has taken the position that its military forces will abide by the principles of the Hague Declaration. The underlying bases for the Hague Declaration’s prohibition are taken from principles contained in Hague Convention IV, Respecting the Laws and Customs of War on Land, particularly the principle of unnecessary suffering.

http://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_Law/pdf/08-2006.pdf (Page 19)

This is someone's opinion on it... same guy that shared that reference listed above.
The US signed on to the Hague Convention of 1907. They did not sign the 1899 Peace Convention but followed the guidelines outlined in them. The US DID NOT sign on to the 1977 Protocol I of the 1949 Geneva Convention that states in part that "It is prohibited to employ weapons and projectiles that cause superfluous injury and unnecessary injury". We did not sign on for Military,Political and Humanitarian reasons. I think the US felt this had already been covered and was not needed. You have to understand most of these "Conventions" are done to either embarrass or otherwise impede countries that are powerful. The US makes it a point to not sign on to stuff like this and similar treaties like Kyoto which only attempt to level the playing field and penalize the powerful. Not something you want to do in Combat. Kind of like making CCW holder carry a Zipgun and letting criminals have the best weapons.

Hollow point ammo was issued to troops fighting in OIF and OEF and is legal to use there(I have been deployed to both 2 times each while in the Army). My snipers used it as did Designated marksmen. It was made by Black Hills Ammo.

Remember the 1985 opinion of the US JAG that the ammo is not made to inflict injury but to increase accuracy and it is legal to use that ammo against terrorists; "expanding point ammunition is legally permissible to use in counter-terrorist operations not involving another states armed forces". The forces we are fighting in OIF and OEF are not part of a recognized state. I am not a JAG officer(I was a Ranger NCO for 24 years)

Another feller said:
Basically it goes back to the Germans wanting to make the British bad by calling expanding ammo "inhumane". (Cause apparently if you shoot someone with ball ammo it's all OK.) Call it 19th century political correctness.

The Germans tried the same "inhumane" crap in WWI with regards to shotguns. Nobody cared about that though, mainly because the Germans were on the receiving end and the Germans had been spraying Mustard gas across half of Europe for the past several years.

[boomer]

Tell that to the 2.6 million Japanese civilians that got to see Atomic Weapons up close.

All things considered, I would rather be toasted with a Nuke that to be blown apart by convetional High Explosives to bleed to death. In my opinion there is no such thing as a humane way to kill another human being.

Someone a lot smarter than me said "WAR IS HELL"......I agree!

[juniustaylor]

For some reason I keep thinking about the "punch in the face" comment...

The human body also is not tolerant to being punched in the face, and with the proper punch it can be just as effective as a .45 but I think I would rather stick with my handgun.