Another way the P-64 can discharge w/o pulling the trigger!

[tai]

first post to the group as a new p-64 mak owner. just came across this thread.

pistols of this time period and earlier dont have transfer bars as I have recently learned. the transfer bar on newer model handguns will ensure that the firing pin will only work if the trigger it pulled (ensuring that the gun will not discharge just by half-cocking the hammer)

obviously, as you have proven p-64s do not have this so they ARE NOT drop safe. (you can determine if your pistol has a transfer bar or not by inserting a pen down the barrel, pointing the gun up and cocking the hammer most of the way and letting go. If the pen jumps, no transfer mechanism if it doesnt there probably is. would try a few times)

Well, mine apparently has a transfer mechanism, and the manual lists as part of 'safeties' a transfer bar block (whatever that means), and firing pin block.

So, sort of in limbo here, but I am inclined to lean toward carry with safety off if one is left-handed, and optional with a right-handed person.

All I know is that after a field strip and looking down on the frame there's no way my firing pin goes forward beyond the little disc that one sees if you let go of the trigger and then left the hammer fall (gently because bare frame).

More importantly, after field stripping, just cock back the hammer a bit shy of fully cocked and let it go gently forward - the firing pin does not protrude beyond that disc on mine.

[tai]

I just pulled some bullets from both Silver Bear HP and Wolf Military Classic and conducted a test with primer-only cases.

With the safety off (red = fire), all four of my P-64's, a 1972 rounded hammer spur, 2 1974's, and a 1976 will discharge if the hammer is pulled back 1/2 to 3/4 of the way and then released.

All weapons have the original springs - no modifications.

I may try this myself but I traded all my reloading equipment along with my bullet puller(s).

But if accurate it is definitely cause for concern.

I hope that I can confirm the same. If not, then I don't know what to say, really.

Upon thought and your opening post, if it is not inherent to the gun then the likely scenario is that if gun snagged it went all the way back to full-cock and with that very light (in some cases, 'hair') trigger it went off when rubbing against your clothing or holster.

In light of the foregoing, I am going to refrain from carrying this weapon with safety off with one in the chamber, and because I am left-handed, it will just be a range gun for now.

Thank you.

[wlockridge]

Like with ANY firearm safety comes first. I carry mine with 1 in the pipe also but I seldom take it out of the holster. For the most part, other than government buildings and hospitals, I ignore the "no firearms permitted on these premises" signs. Like my buddy that teaches the CCW courses in this area says, if you are carrying a weapon concealed and someone sees it, you're already breaking the law anyway and, in our state at least, carrying a concealed weapon on posted private property is a minor misdemeanour, the same as failing to properly conceal it in public, so the sanction is going to be the same anyway. Being a retired police officer, I know that my weapon is more secure on my person than it is laying under the seat or in the glove box of my car. For those times when I must leave it in my vehicle I have a well concealed Bulldog gun vault to put it in. I'm far more concerned that some kid will break into my vehicle and steal my gun thereby placing another weapon into the hands of a criminal and further endangering the public, than I am about getting caught with it on posted private property. All of that being said, knowing that the P 64 has no hammer block when in the fire position, when I reholster my weapon I always keep my thumb firmly on the hammer spur until the weapon is properly seated in the holster thereby negating this type of accidental discharge. When I first acquired my P 64 I searched the internet and found this site and I learned of the different ways this weapon could accidentally discharge (this being one of them) so I took it to a safe area and placed both thumbs on the hammer and pushed down as hard as I could and the weapon could not be discharged. Then I practised drawing and reholstering the weapon until I was confident with it. I think that we, as the public carrying a concealed weapon, have a duty to train with and operate that weapon every bit as much, if not more, than active duty police officers do. After all we are literately taking the power of life and death into our hands. Stay safe.

[tai]

Sounds like you did the old revolver test to check the sear when hammer is cocked and push on it and if it does not drop then it passes.

I could not tell from your post, or did not surmise from it, whether you carry with or without the safety.

I am addressing your points in a round-about way because I want to assume a 'snag' scenario. Your points are well-taken to avoid a snag, but I want to be assured that in the event of a snag I will not have a AD.

In any event, unless one does the test with either live rounds or primed empty cases, I would recommend carry with safety ON, in light of OP's testing with FOUR of his P-64s that all ignited the primers when pulling back hammer just shy of cocked and dropping the same without engaging the trigger. That IS kind of SCARY.

Doesn't seem to make sense if it were to ignite, that is why I must do the test as OP has, in spite of the 'pencil test' which mine clearly passed. Since mine passed the pencil test I would be surprised with an ignition with live rounds or primed empty cases.

Whether the gun 'quarter-cocks' or not, there appears to be that safety mechanism similar to a 1911 whereby the hammer will be caught if it drops without pulling the trigger. We shall see with mine, but I can report that it DOES stop short in that so-called 'quarter-cock position' when hammer is pulled back just shy of cocked and let go...and when initially pulling back on the hammer with my thumb, it immediately 'clicks'. That 'click' to me is the quarter-cock position.
And with OP's it must've not engaged.

If it engages with mine with further testing, I will be confident of carrying Condition 2. If not, then safety will have to be ON for any carry.

[snailman153624]

Even if it quarter-cocks, that still relies on pressure from the trigger spring. What that means is if you drop your gun, it's entirely possible for the jolt to cause the mass of the mechanism to overcome the spring pressure, and allow the hammer to strike the firing pin. It only reduces the likelihood, but without a true transfer bar, it does not eliminate it.

[tai]

snailman you bring up a good point.

Now you are discussing what might happen if the firearm should be dropped, while OP was referring to a reported AD not arising from a fall or dropping of the gun, but a snag and discharge while trying to remove the gun with holster from his pants pocket.

I am more concerned about OP's situation and the likelihood of that happening though in actuality the likelihood of dropping the gun may be more likely. The OP's experience and AD seems to be an anomaly, or, to your knowledge, does this happen somewhat often and as described with the testing done by OP in the aftermath?

What is your take on OP's experience?
Have you tested your gun the way OP did his after the incident?

Do you consider the P-64 to be 'drop-safe' with safety engaged?

Do you think if the safety had been engaged when OP tried to remove the firearm the AD never would have occurred?

There has been little discussion in this thread about the transfer bar block and the firing pin block. Your comments apparently refer to the transfer bar block? Would that quarter-cock description mentioned throughout the thread be the same, or something different?

What is the firing pin block or can you describe it as mentioned in the manual?

These two safeties are mentioned along with the manual safety, so the manufacturer is representing three (3) safeties in the instruction manual and I'd just like to understand them, at least somewhat.

My interest stems from being left-handed and not wanting to carry the pistol with safety engaged due to the poor ergonomics of the firearm as far as southpaws are concerned. This was a major reason that I sold my Sig SP2009. I disliked the decocker not being ambidextrous, but the decocker did not have a safety and there was some kind of transfer bar or other safety that made it drop-safe. So, it was apparently much safer to carry when decocked with no manual safety present.

[losingle]

Range test report:

Tested with live fiocchi ammo. 95gr mak/

With hammer retracted to just prior to sa cock and released zero firing pin strikes on live bullet.
Did this 20 times, no firing pin strikes. (simulated hammer caught on pants).

P-64 has a hammer notch safety that catches hammer prior to striking at bout 1/8 inch off the firing pin head without the trigger being pulled. Not foolproof but works on my 1974 p-64 worked 20 out of 20 times. I still use the safety carrying rnd in chamber. I am right handed.

[tai]

Very helpful post, losingle. Thank you for the report.

Please try to imagine if you were left-handed and wanted to carry with safety OFF, what would you do in light of your findings with your firearm?

For purposes of the question, I'd like you to answer:

1 how you would carry taking into consideration OP's mishap;
2. how you would carry assuming an anticipated dropping of the weapon.

Please answer as best you can and not take the easy way...don't worry about my personal consequences or any liability issues on your part...I am not going to rely on your statements and will eventually come to my own determination. I am just asking for lay opinions and not expert ones.

[wlockridge]

Sounds like you did the old revolver test to check the sear when hammer is cocked and push on it and if it does not drop then it passes.

I could not tell from your post, or did not surmise from it, whether you carry with or without the safety.

I am addressing your points in a round-about way because I want to assume a 'snag' scenario. Your points are well-taken to avoid a snag, but I want to be assured that in the event of a snag I will not have a AD.

In any event, unless one does the test with either live rounds or primed empty cases, I would recommend carry with safety ON, in light of OP's testing with FOUR of his P-64s that all ignited the primers when pulling back hammer just shy of cocked and dropping the same without engaging the trigger. That IS kind of SCARY.

Doesn't seem to make sense if it were to ignite, that is why I must do the test as OP has, in spite of the 'pencil test' which mine clearly passed. Since mine passed the pencil test I would be surprised with an ignition with live rounds or primed empty cases.

Whether the gun 'quarter-cocks' or not, there appears to be that safety mechanism similar to a 1911 whereby the hammer will be caught if it drops without pulling the trigger. We shall see with mine, but I can report that it DOES stop short in that so-called 'quarter-cock position' when hammer is pulled back just shy of cocked and let go...and when initially pulling back on the hammer with my thumb, it immediately 'clicks'. That 'click' to me is the quarter-cock position.
And with OP's it must've not engaged.

If it engages with mine with further testing, I will be confident of carrying Condition 2. If not, then safety will have to be ON for any carry.

tai,
In order to clarify my comment, yes I did do the revolver trick as that was all I ever carried on duty but the test that I was describing was with the safety off and the hammer in the resting position. I placed both thumbs on the hammer spur and exerted as much pressure as I could muster (with the weapon pointed in a safe direction of course) to see if I could cause the weapon to discharge, I could not. I then pulled the trigger back about half way, again pointed in a safe direction, and let it drop and it did in fact discharge. What I discerned from this rough test was that as long as I keep constant pressure against the hammer with my thumb while reholstering, the type of accidental discharge we're discussing is very unlikely, it would take a sudden sharp strike. In answer to your second question, I do carry mine with the safety off. At the end of the day, whether you decide to carry in 1, 2, or 3 is a personal choice. The more important issue is that whatever you decide, you MUST practise drawing, firing, and reholstering enough that you feel confident that you can carry this, or any other weapon for that matter, safely and can deploy it effectively. Too many`folks think that by simply buying a weapon and strapping it on their hip that they are now safe. Nothing could be further from the truth. Stay safe and well my friend.

[hangfire]

I'll add one more vote with the previous posters who advised against carrying with a round in the chamber. I'm aware that's probably a minority opinion, and that the very real trade-off might be lost seconds in an emergency situation. It's just a personal choice anyone who carries has to make.

Glad the OP wasn't injured and very much appreciate him sharing his story.

[tai]

hangfire-

I appreciate your comments but I think they go a bit too far.

The issue in this thread appears to be whether to carry safety ON or safety OFF with round in the chamber.

Of course, we all have our personal preferences but I think the P-64 with its action is more likely to be difficult to rack suddenly and is heavier than most to do so, and is likely to be forgotten in a true emergency.

Whenever I cycle a round into the chamber, I do have the safety ON which is a great feature. It's reassuring to know the gun will not fire while racking it. But, imho, Condition 3 is out of the question for me at least, with any semi-auto.

By your comments I am wondering if you are of the view that the gun is NOT drop safe, or safe at all, with a round in the chamber even with the safety ON? Please clarify.

[snailman153624]

The hammer block is the safety...the safety pivots up a lug that prevents the hammer from striking the firing pin.

I, too, am left-handed. Getting the safety off in a big hurry is a concern, but nevertheless I prefer to leave the safety on. The safety blocks the hammer from striking the firing pin with a mechanism that doesn't rely on spring pressure or gravity, which makes it much more reliable than a tiny notch/spur on the hammer.

I also never ever rack the slide (i.e. to chamber a round) with the safety off unless I'm at a range and pointing down range. Should the hammer malfunction and drop unexpectedly, it sure seems like it could discharge.

[tai]

Persuasive post, snailman.

When you say hammer block safety, I guess that you are referring to the decocker/safety. It is the decocker portion that actually constitutes the hammer block (preventing hammer from striking firing pin), or is it more?

Also listed in the owner's manual are the transfer bar block and firing pin block. Does that notch on the hammer constitute either or neither? What IS the transfer bar block and the firing pin block. Are they related to the decocker/safety mechanism or other?

Thus far, no one has been able to identify or explain those to me adequately. They are listed in the manual without explanation and I was hoping to learn more.

In any event, as a leftie, and weighing my one in a million or more chance that I might have to rely on the weapon while carrying it with a round in the chamber, I have decided that it's safeER and best for me, as a southpaw, to nevertheless keep the safety ON, also.

I will still test firearm by merely pulling back the hammer and releasing it shy of it being cocked with a round in the chamber downrange. Curious as to the result with mine, but will not likely influence my decision to still carry it with safety ON.

Thanks for your comments.

[tai]

Here's an older thread that I have found helpful:
http://p64resource.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3147 . According to some posts, the gun is simply not 'drop-safe' without the safety engaged. I wonder if it is even 'drop-safe' even with the safety ON. say, for instance, where firearm is dropped directly on the muzzle.

In any event, I am not going to concern myself with it further.

In my situation, I think it more likely the gun will be dropped than encountering a SD scenario while carrying the weapon. So, for me - it's definitely safety 'ON' notwithstanding I am a southpaw and gun in my left hand has to be rotated 90 degrees to the right to flick the safety OFF with my right thumb.

Well, that's settled, at least re my concerns. Thanks!

[snailman153624]

In your testing at the range, just be careful not to let the slide come back and whack you in the fingers as you manipulate the hammer. It's not a revolver, it's a semi-auto, and the slide could probably take a chunk of flesh out if it caught you just right.

The decocker lever IS the safety, they are one and the same lever. With it in the "decock" position, this engages the firing pin block I mentioned.

The transfer bar safety you mention probably refers to the fact that the trigger no longer cocks the hammer (when pulled, as it normally would, being that this is a DA pistol) with the safety engaged.