Reliable CC if using safety in normally worn P-64's?

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RobsTV
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Reliable CC if using safety in normally worn P-64's?

Post by RobsTV »

I have been carrying my P-64 with one in the chamber, hammer down, safety off, using the DA as a sort of safety. This was mainly because I had issues where an AD occurred moving safety from safe to fire.

Decided to look into the issue I had and sure enough, it is screwed up.
Before I go into how, seeing another thread about how people carry with the P-64, the thought occurred to me, safety on does not seem like something you can count on. For example, my P-64 works great in both DA and SA. However, if I have it loaded with one in the chamber, lower hammer, then Safety on, trigger is limp, as expected, and now safely concealed just in case. But when that time comes when I need to use it, pull out the P-64, flip safety to fire, and pull trigger, only to still have a limp trigger, just as if safety were still on. Yes, something is wrong, have yet to determine exact cause, but the dis-connector is probable area. Others have posted similar results, so not that uncommon. If I remove mag, eject round, insert mag and cycle slide, it then works great again (safety off). Only time stuff goes wrong is moving safety from safe to fire.

Safety works great when flipping off or on and dry firing when gun is empty, and all internal parts appear fine looking at action with grips and slide removed.

My point is, if this is something that can wear out normally over time, how can we count on the safety-fire to work when we need it to in these older and slightly more worn P-64's? Seems like less risk just leaving it with safety off.

Or, is there a group of parts that would be wise to replace? Something that would remove all doubts and possible causes of failing to fire when we need it too? If buying a part from Poland, I would rather buy a couple other parts at the same time, and get it over with, so that a reliable and safe CC weapon would be ready.
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Re: Reliable CC if using safety in normally worn P-64's?

Post by Curly1 »

You said you looked itnto the issue, what did you find exactly that you think is screwedup?

Did you find a worn part?

Maybe something isn't reassembled correctly from long ago in the trigger area?
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Re: Reliable CC if using safety in normally worn P-64's?

Post by dfunk »

We've been around here for quite some time now, and it's only recently we started hearing about weird issues with the disconnector in these guns. Now, I understand that the more the guns saturate the market, the more problems you're going to have in the pool of them, but the disconnector really shouldn't be one of them.

It's a crappy little part - probably the cheapest part to have made on the gun, if you ask me, and honestly, one of the more critical ones to boot. It's made to jiggle around in the slot, with no real tolerance at all. It seems as if there are a lot of kitchen table gunsmiths filing on these, bending them, and manipulating them to the point that they need a replacement altogether. In my opinion, the disco and it's slot need to be cleaned and inspected before shooting, as it seems a common problem now.

RobsTV, regarding your issue, it sounds as if it's sticking. I would take it out, color it all over (yes, 100%) with a blue sharpie marker, put it back in, and cycle the gun a few times. You can then inspect it for any abnormal wear where the marker has rubbed off. Do this with the grips off so you can get eyes on the trigger bar, too.

The P64 is a solid little gun, but it's not without it's shortcomings. If it was fit with a better designed and quality steel safety, disconnector, and trigger return springs, it would be hard to find anything wrong with it mechanically, I think.
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Re: Reliable CC if using safety in normally worn P-64's?

Post by normsutton »

he got grease in it and it should have any , lightly oil then blow off

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Re: Reliable CC if using safety in normally worn P-64's?

Post by RobsTV »

Thanks for the replies.

Nothing is broken or cracked or severely worn, but everything has moderate wear inside. It was an Aim grade "B" purchase that I have shot probably 400 rounds through so far. Used the safety during the first few dozen or so rounds, until the Safety Catch broke in half. Installed a new Safety Catch, safety worked correctly at first, then the AD happened after around 100 rounds through the gun. Since AD when turning safety off, have shot the majority of rounds never using the safety. I have also replaced recoil and firing pin springs with Wolf 22# at the same time I replaced the Safety Catch. Really, it is a great gun with the safety off, and one of my favorites.

I will try the sharpie marker thing to see if it tells me more.

Norm, your answer exactly highlights the flaw that I am concerned about when relying on safety usage. If something as casual as a little grease (or dirt, oil, etc) can cause the the safety to not be fully disengaged when your life might depend on perhaps only one shot, then it would seem that the P-64 should not be used as a CC with safety on. This is probably one of the worst types of failures you could have in a CC, weapon rendered totally useless for long period of time, and an issue that could be easily avoided by not using safety.

But in this instance, no grease anyway, and fully cleaned regularly, lightly oiled, then blown out thoroughly with air compressor. The point about something so little causing such as drastic failure was what I was getting at. Replacing a part to correct issue is the hopeful solution. If tolerance is so critical that many little things in nature might cause the issue, then that is bad.
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Re: Reliable CC if using safety in normally worn P-64's?

Post by Zena13 »

I would not carry this weapon with the safety off and one in the chamber. The problem with the gun is that with the safety off if you should somehow catch the hammer while putting it in your holster and if it gets pushed part of the way back and then falls forward it will fire. It can also fire if it is dropped and it hits the hammer just right. There is nothing to block the firing pin in the safety off position.
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Re: Reliable CC if using safety in normally worn P-64's?

Post by PA-Joe »

Read the threads on people shooting themselves while having one in the chamber. These P-64s will fire if dropped while the safety is off.
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Re: Reliable CC if using safety in normally worn P-64's?

Post by cjm135 »

RobsTV,

Your comment about the AD sound similar to ZENO thread "New member with sad story”.
Nothing is broken or cracked or severely worn, but everything has moderate wear inside. It was an Aim grade "B" purchase that I have shot probably 400 rounds through so far. Used the safety during the first few dozen or so rounds, until the Safety Catch broke in half. Installed a new Safety Catch, safety worked correctly at first, then the AD happened after around 100 rounds through the gun. Since AD when turning safety off, have shot the majority of rounds never using the safety. I have also replaced recoil and firing pin springs with Wolf 22# at the same time I replaced the Safety Catch. Really, it is a great gun with the safety off, and one of my favorites.
My slide will hang up unless I really give it a good hard cycle allowing the slide to slam on the return. I wonder if that cause the AD. When I cycle the slide slow and easy with the safety ON, and where the slide does not return fully, the trigger is sloppy, no resistance.

When I cycle the slide with the safety OFF, no magazine, the slide does not hang up and will complete the cycle and return. There seems to be an issue with the slide returning with the safety ON, at least with my P64.
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Re: Reliable CC if using safety in normally worn P-64's?

Post by RobsTV »

cjm135, you might be onto something, but in my case, the slide was only moved with safety off. Always snapped slide fully, never easy on slide. After chambering a round with slide, then squeezing trigger to manually lower thumb held hammer, and last step was placing the safety on, or safe. From this position, flipping safety off, as if ready to fire in DA mode, resulted in limp trigger more times than not.

The issue is not so much what is causing the problem, but that in some of these older P-64's there might be issues that something as minor as a little grease or a spec of dirt could make the move from safe to fire fail and trigger stays limp. Seems very little room for error due to parts perhaps very slightly out of tolerance. I know, a lot of guessing maybes, perhaps, but to me, it's a problem I see that I should not have to think about.

Yesterday, completely disassembled P-64 and took some 0000 steel wool to all the components safety related. Did not see anything unusual, except hammer strut in wrong position on hammer. Already was very clean from normal maintenance, but did the polishing anyway.

The hammer strut had been in the wrong position for more than 400 rounds, and was the way gun was shipped, so thought it was normal. Strut was not on pin inside hammer, and was instead on outer curved portion of hammer. The hammer strut changed DA pull from normal to very hard once in correct position, like most complain about. Safety is now testing correctly, with safety moving to fire and full DA trigger every time. I doubt hammer strut had any affect on safety, since strut has always been that way for me, and safety worked fine for the first 100 rounds. So it did not directly and instantly make safety fail by being in wrong position. But perhaps being in the wrong position accelerated some wear, and now that it is in correct position, safety again will be fine for a long time? Wonder how it got in the wrong position, and how many other P-64's are like this. If DA is not hard to pull, then this might be something an owner should look at.

I shoot a lot, so will keep testing the P-64 with one in the chamber and safety on, and will update when it fails again.

Edit: Flipping safety from safe to fire resulted in limp trigger on first test at the range. So hammer strut properly positioned is confirmed as not related. Polishing also did not cure. Several more tests and safe to fire worked fine. But as a CC, the first one would have been the one that I would have needed, and as a CC, it would have failed to protect.

I am also going to move the hammer strut back to the wrong position. DA sucks the way it is, and it worked fine in the wrong position for who knows how long. Maybe this was a little trick the Polish LEO did when they first started using these? Anyway, the only changes my recent work has done is made the P-64 worse not better or a more reliable CC choice.

Edit June 2, 2012.
Confirmed none of the work listed above had any affect. Same as it was. More times than not, flipping safety from safe to fire results in limp trigger. A slight tap of gun onto other palm usually fixes it.
Last edited by RobsTV on June 2nd, 2012, 8:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Reliable CC if using safety in normally worn P-64's?

Post by Nakanokalronin »

I'm not suggesting anyone do this but I'll bet the safety could be modified where it would still block/lock the firing pin yet not disengage the trigger. As it is, I would most defiantly carry with the safety on.
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