OT WWI S&W Rig

Post by **papabear** » April 6th, 2007, 1:27 pm

Here is one of my 1917 revolver rigs with a 1917 S&W .45acp [DOB 1918] with a WWI Mills NCO web belt [1918] Russel three pocket moon clip pouch [1918], G&K 1918 holster, and lanyard [1917] the .45acp ammo is head stamped 1943 from the Evansville, IN. Arsenal. This rig and others like it were also use in the beginning of WWII because of the lack of .45acp pistols available at the time, I have pics of soldiers practicing with the Colt and S&W 1917's in '42. The revolvers were worn on the right side with the butt of the revolver facing forward, the reason for this is because officers and NCO's had a bracket on the web belt which is on the left side, in this pic the bracket is behind the three pocket moon clip pouch, the saber was drawn with the right hand and the revolver was drawn with the left hand, hence the revolver on the right side had the butt forward to accomplish this.

This is an enlisted man but the holsters were all the same.

Papabear

garry · Post by **garry** » April 6th, 2007, 1:43 pm

Love at first sight ! i read a neat story about those half moon shell holders and the guy who thought them up , I don't recall where i saw it tho. Do you know much about them? If i remember right , some public celebrity thought them up ? G

carguy · Post by **carguy** » April 6th, 2007, 2:18 pm

WOW! Now that is too cool!

If I send you my home phone will you call me at night with more stories papa...I mean...Papabear? 8~)

Seriously that is awesome! Now I know what I need to do with the couple of collectible pieces I have (1911 commercial to military manf. in 1918 and a P-35 Radom pieced together in 1942/43. I have holsters (tattered broken stap to the shoulder rig for the 1911) now I need to figure out the rest of the "gear".

Papabear you just inspired me. Thanks

nicksterdemus · Post by **nicksterdemus** » April 7th, 2007, 5:00 am

Papabear were all the WWl 1917 holsters cross draw? Or seeing how most folks are right handed was ya supposed 2 flip 'em around while breakin' leather? I'm trying 2 see the logic in the design n function. Another interesting feature is the closed/plugged holster end stitched in............

Post by **papabear** » April 7th, 2007, 8:48 am

Papabear were all the WWl 1917 holsters cross draw? Or seeing how most folks are right handed was ya supposed 2 flip 'em around while breakin' leather? I'm trying 2 see the logic in the design n function. Another interesting feature is the closed/plugged holster end stitched in............

nick,

Yes, all the WWI holsters are as you see them, if you happen to be left handed then it was a cross draw if you were a enlisted man, however, because of the saber the NCO's and officers carried on the left side, the saber was drawn with the right hand for the NCO's and officers, so if the saber was drawn they too had to cross draw, but if the saber was not drawn and they were right handed then they had "2 flip 'em around while breaking leather". This was a carry over from the Calvary in the 1800's. Later, the army saw the logic in wearing the holster in the conventional way and in the early part of WWII ['42] they made the holsters so the butt of the revolver was pointing to the rear or for conventional carry for a right hand draw. Back then the so called army wisdom saw no reason to make two different holsters, so all holsters were made the same for WWI.

Post by **papabear** » April 7th, 2007, 8:59 am

Love at first sight ! i read a neat story about those half moon shell holders and the guy who thought them up , I don't recall where i saw it tho. Do you know much about them? If i remember right , some public celebrity thought them up ? G

garry,

The more modern moon clip was devised shortly prior to WWI. As revolvers are generally designed to use rimmed cartridges, the moon clip allows the use of rimless cartridges designed for semi-automatic pistols in revolvers. This had the effect of simplifying logistics during wartime, and also allowing modified British Webley Revolvers to use U.S. .45 ACP ammunition.

Half-moon clips were used in the US M1917 revolver to allow rimless .45 ACP cartridges to be used. so that is the reason for the half moon clip. Because the relatively new M1911 semi-automatic pistol could not be manufactured fast enough, the U.S. War Department asked Smith & Wesson and Colt to devise ways to use the M1911's .45 ACP cartridge (which is rimless) in their revolvers.

As to who invented the half moon clip, the only info I have on that says it was Joseph Wesson of Smith & Wesson, whether or not this is true might be up to debate, but I believe he got credit for it.

Note:

The year was 1916 and trouble was brewing in Europe. Somebody recognized that there would be a need for more handguns chambered for the new .45 ACP cartridge. Colt, Springfield Armory- the original one in Massachusetts- and Remington-UMC would not be able to produce enough semiautomtics. Even though the 1911 was standard issue, there weren't enough to meet wartime needs.

Working with Springfield Armory, Smith & Wesson began development of a revolver to fire the ACP cartridge. They were already making .455 revolvers for Great Britain and it was not a particularly difficult job to adapt their Second Model .44 Hand Ejector to .45 ACP.

The problem was the ammunition. Loading rimless cartridges into a revolver cylinder presented some difficulties. While it was certainly possible to cut a chamber that would make the ammo headspace properly, there was no way to eject them. It took forever to pick the empties out by hand. Joseph Wesson solved the problem with the half-moon clip we all know and hate. At the time, it was a great idea.

Papabear

garry · Post by **garry** » April 7th, 2007, 10:27 am

THANKS Papabear !! that is good reading there ! i love the history stories like that ! That gun has a great history and the half-moon clips are a real bit of American ingenuity . Take what ya got, and , make it work ! G

himmel · Post by **himmel** » April 8th, 2007, 4:18 pm

As I used to say when I was about 7 years old, NEAT-O!

Post by **papabear** » April 8th, 2007, 7:19 pm

As I used to say when I was about 7 years old, NEAT-O!

himmel,

Thanks for the kind comments, I remember "Neat-O", lets see, 7yrs old, would that would make it 1963? I was 19 that year, oh and what a nice year that was, my freshman year in college, man that was a great year...... ;D

Papabear

bzinggg · Post by **bzinggg** » April 8th, 2007, 8:18 pm

As I used to say when I was about 7 ;Dyears old, NEAT-O!
himmel,

Thanks for the kind comments, I remember "Neat-O", lets see, 7yrs old, would that would make it 1963? I was 19 that year, oh and what a nice year that was, my freshman year in college, man that was a great year...... ;D

Papabear

Now you're braggin'! ;D

anjdrifter · Post by **anjdrifter** » April 9th, 2007, 7:16 am

Here is one of my 1917 revolver rigs with a 1917 S&W .45acp [DOB 1918] with a WWI Mills NCO web belt [1918] Russel three pocket moon clip pouch [1918], G&K 1918 holster, and lanyard [1917] the .45acp ammo is head stamped 1943 from the Evansville, IN. Arsenal. This rig and others like it were also use in the beginning of WWII because of the lack of .45acp pistols available at the time, I have pics of soldiers practicing with the Colt and S&W 1917's in '42. The revolvers were worn on the right side with the butt of the revolver facing forward, the reason for this is because officers and NCO's had a bracket on the web belt which is on the left side, in this pic the bracket is behind the three pocket moon clip pouch, the saber was drawn with the right hand and the revolver was drawn with the left hand, hence the revolver on the right side had the butt forward to accomplish this.

This is an enlisted man but the holsters were all the same.

Papabear

Hey Papabear you dont look bad for your age inthe picture LOL ;D

Post by **papabear** » April 9th, 2007, 7:26 am

anjdrifter,

I wish I was that thin again, come to think about it, I never was that thin........... ;D

Papabear

anjdrifter · Post by **anjdrifter** » April 9th, 2007, 7:29 am

hey the hair looks like what i see in the mirror.

daniel · Post by **daniel** » April 9th, 2007, 9:21 am

Fantastic, What a Beautiful collection., I love history, Thank you for sharing this collection. Regards Dan

himmel · Post by **himmel** » April 9th, 2007, 3:16 pm

As I used to say when I was about 7 years old, NEAT-O!
himmel,

Thanks for the kind comments, I remember "Neat-O", lets see, 7yrs old, would that would make it 1963? I was 19 that year, oh and what a nice year that was, my freshman year in college, man that was a great year...... ;D

Papabear

Got it purty close--I turned 7 near the end of '62. thought that was a pretty good year myself--you guys shoulda seen my first-grade teacher.... LOL!

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