Is it not impossible...

[bzinggg]

...to honestly list a P-64 as "Factory New" on a gun auction? These pistols haven't been in production for 40 years and they were never manufactured for commercial distribution. Every one that was made was issued to a police or military arsenal.

The ones we have here in the States are sold by wholesalers and dealers who buy them from liscensed import distributors who have bid on crated lots of them as they were retired and put up for auction by the Polish arsenals. The importers have to stamp each pistol as an import. All the P-64s available are "Military Surplus Firearms".

It is my understanding that they may be described as "Unissued", but in no way can one be certified as "Factory New". As a matter of fact, there is no way to really prove that a particular pistol has never been issued. "Unissued Condition" is just a guess a seller makes by evaluating the condition of a pistol upon examining it.

If I am wrong about this, will someone WHO CAN PROVE IT WITH FACTUAL DOCUMENTATION please set me straight.

[steve98664]

You are correct.

However, for a surplus or gunboard newbie, unissued is a confusing term. I think sellers simplify things while trying to appeal to folks unfamiliar with the particulars of the correct terminology.

I see the error, but I'm unoffended when I see it done.

The factory armorer fires a pistol to sight it in, right? It would be near imposssible to figure out if a pistol was fired lightly by the destination armory or just by the production armorer. Well thats my guess anyhow.

I feel I can examine the extractor, matching serialized mags, feed ramp, etc to determine if a pistol was fired. I am fooled always though. I think a recent surplus purchase of mine was fired, but blueing was applied to the mag follower to cover use for whatever reasons. There was powder residue in the pistol and the extractor looked dirty/used, but in near new condition still. The mag followers scrapped up on my first firing of the pistol. I looked closely at the 2nd mag and saw the touch up on the follower.

I can be picky, but you have me beat.

[himmel]

From the DA trigger pull on my CZAK when i bought it, and the improvement that came thereafter after just a bit of use, I would have to guess that mine was hardly, if ever, fired...LOL!

[space]

Both of mine came covered in cosmoline so I assume they were unissued. Although I suppose it's possible they coated them again when they were turned in and storred.

Both were free of handling marks and looked new. Good enough for me...

[papabear]

To put things in proper perspective, the term "Un-issued" as used by wholesalers and others for the sole purpose of selling or bragging on their guns is at best confusing. IMHO, I have to agree with bzinggg. The P-64 was and is still used by the military and is over 40 years old, although it is being replaced by the CZ82 according to some writings.

Maybe it should be brought out that when the P-64 was first brought to light here in this country, very little if any mention was made about it being "Un-Issued", but rather a "Surplus 9x18 military pistol in VG condition. Now that it is becoming a somewhat popular pistol, not without some dissension, and the price is starting to rise, (supply & demand) and just like all other surplus imports before it, the sellers are becoming more competitive and hence, a new word that is not in the dictionary (Unissued) hit the pages of their adds. Another issue that were stated by sellers of the P-64 was calling it a "Makarov" and the stink it raised about the P-64 not being a "Makarov". Again IMHO, this is were it all began, not having anything to do with reality but simply a way of raising the price because of comparing it with a proven pistol or because of supply and demand.

I'm not a English major, but why not use the word, "Unused", it might bring a better price, but it doesn't have that "Zing" to it, does it! "Un-Issued" doesn't meant squat, in my simple opinion, if it were turly un-issued the price would be doubled what it is today, and then again it could have still been used and still "Un-Issued, so what's the point. If you find and buy or have a P-64 or any other surplus gun for that matter, it will almost certainly carry a higher price. I for one shoot and use all my guns and in the process they will get from time to time defects in cosmetics, but still function just fine. I use to call myself a collector till my wife reminded me that I was more of a "Accumulator" than a "Collector", another way for her to call me a "pack rat", but I do like & use all my accumulations, they don't hang on a wall or left in a gun safe, they get used and taken out and cleaned and handled, and in some cases fondled.

I own some relatively expensive guns and not one of them is "unisued"! I'm not perfect and I do make mistakes! ;D

PapaBear

[bzinggg]

Thanks to all for their input on this subject.

On the Gunbroker Auction, when you list an item for sale, you come to a field that gives you three choices, "Factory New", "New, Old Stock", and "Used". A fourth choice would to be to leave it "Unspecified".

In my opinion, anyone who lists a P-64 as either Factory New or |New, Old Stock commits fraud. I'm not just talking about flowering it up in the general description field. I'm talking about a specific warrant to the actual condition of the firearm as specififed by a particular check box offering very narrowly defined terms as stipulated by the rules of the auction.

Here's just one example:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... m=52576012

If you will maximize the page and look down to about the 15th line you will see a specific notation "Item Description:", where that seller selected "Factory New", when it wasn't, by any stretch.

[steve98664]

Bzinggg,

Maybe you should contact gunbroker if you are really offended by the terminology and believe it is a legal liability. They may correct things. I am still not worried about an unissued surplus pistol being called new when there are no new to be had and everyone can tell what's what.

However, I would see a bigger problem for an "unissued" Glock being sold as new. Example, an unissued Police Glock is sold as new, but it was owned for 5 years by the dept, cleaned, possibly shot, disassembled, etc. I see difference for this circumstance if this type of pistol is sold as new, since there are new Glocks on the market that would compete with the unissued pistol.

We all know the P-64's are surplus items.

Papabear, are CZ82 Czech pistols being used in Poland? Was that a typo? I have a P-83 and have tried to purchase a Mag-95. The Wist-94 is the poles new pistol from what I've heard. Let us know if there is something like that going on. Here is the link I found a long time ago..... It goes to the rifle section, but it is a quick click to the pistols.

http://hem.passagen.se/dadkri/Hunter.htm

[papabear]

steve98664,

OOOOOPS, sorry about that, I stand corrected, it's tuff getting old, have brain farts all the time now. I'm not sure what I was thinking at the time, ???, but thanks for correcting me. As far as I know you are correct, the Wist-94 is their new pistol.

Papabear