My P64 does have a hammer block

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Curly1
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Re: My P64 does have a hammer block

Post by Curly1 »

I will say the the safety on the P64 isn't the most ergonomic thing to work with.
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Gary
Trooper joe
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Re: My P64 does have a hammer block

Post by Trooper joe »

You are correct. I feel that if I try to smooth it up a bit (ie., make it easier to use) I may develop the "dropping safety" syndrome where it drops while shooting and the hammer simply rides the slide back to the non-cocked position (a lot of stuff about this problem on the Walther forum).

Trooper Joe
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Re: My P64 does have a hammer block

Post by Trooper joe »

I was just browsing the "Modification, fixes, and repair" section and noticed this post from our esteemed Norm Sutton:

at viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3458


[quote="normsutton"]gloob
I make them myself , the hammer on the P-64 will not hit the firing pin unless the trigger is pulled, period , if does there is something wrong with your gun


I am calling this system a "hammer block" system and I think there is another name for it. I think is has something to do with the disconnect system but it does in fact perform the job of blocking the hammer from going forward enough to fire the gun unless the trigger is pulled back.

Trooper Joe
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Re: My P64 does have a hammer block

Post by Ketchman »

Trooper Joe,

I read that manual, thank you for finding and posting it. However I believe that it is written in a manner of military manuals and if the section you refer to is read with that in mind ,

Manual: trigger bar block, firing pin block, loaded chamber indicator

it means that the safety's are manually operated.
Close enough for Government work will get you dead, ask any Vet.
gemini1
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Re: My P64 does have a hammer block

Post by gemini1 »

TJ, I cant quite make up what you're referring to as "hammer block" On your pic, is it the one where the red arrow points at?

Image
snailman153624
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Re: My P64 does have a hammer block

Post by snailman153624 »

The rebounding hammer block is not visible from the top, it's a notch on the bottom of they hammer inside the frame .
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Re: My P64 does have a hammer block

Post by Trooper joe »

snailman153624 wrote:The rebounding hammer block is not visible from the top, it's a notch on the bottom of they hammer inside the frame .
I agree. What I thought was some type of hammer block system (as illustrated by gemini1) is, I believe, part of the disconnect system. I looked several times at this and can't really see where it blocked the hammer from going forward.

So, there must be, as snailman153624 pointed, a system related to the hammer rebound system, not visible from the top.

Now, even more curious, why do some of our P-64's contact the firing pin with the hammer without pulling back on the trigger (such as a pocket or holster snagging condition) and others, mine included, do not? Is the system that seems to operate as a hammer block that fragile? If so, and if the gun seems to operate OK without this feature either present or not working, I am sort of feeling that I ought to re-visit the suggestion on carrying the gun with the slide safety in the down or safe position (yuk, I agree that it is very stiff and not fun to operate).

There is not much info out there outside of this forum, but I think I will keep searching. I have a friend who can speak Polish and has relatives in Poland. Maybe I can solicit his help.

Thanks again,

Trooper Joe
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Curly1
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Re: My P64 does have a hammer block

Post by Curly1 »

I would error on the safe side and use the safety if you are going to carry it.
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Gary
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Re: My P64 does have a hammer block

Post by Trooper joe »

OK, so here is the deal. I was able to duplicate this "AD" syndrome with my P-64 this afternoon at the range. I put one live round in the chamber, emptied the mag, pulled the hammer back several times, and the round eventually fired without touching the trigger. I could only get it to fire when I pulled the hammer back almost to the point of cocking the gun for the SA mode. Short pulls and releases on the hammer did not cause the round to fire.

I tried this about 3 times and was able to duplicate this described potential "AD" each time.

Got home, removed the bullet and powder from another Hornady round, and was able to duplicate this. Again, I had to pull it back almost to the cocking point for the SA mode, and then release it without touching the trigger, before the primer would fire

I then tried the pencil test again and observed the same thing. With a short pull and release, the pencil would not jump. However, if I pulled the hammer back almost to the point of cocking it in the SA mode, the pencil would jump about 5 inches. It should be noted, that when the pencil test is tried just as if the gun was going to be fired in the SA mode, the pencil fly's out of the gun almost to the ceiling. (This would be just as if you were going to actually fire the gun, hammer cocked, and released with a pull of the trigger.)

I checked the primers on the fired rounds from the range as well as the test round I just tried, and found that the indent was very small. Regularly fired rounds leave a much deeper indent in the primer.

This is what I now think, the rebound hammer system works. The hammer does engage some kind of notch or block (not visible from the top with the slide off). I believe it would prevent the gun from firing if something struck the hammer when it is at rest. However, the experience of the various posters concerning partially pulling the hammer back, without touching the trigger, and then letting go of the hammer (such as when it would snag on a holster or your pocket), and if it was almost to the point of cocking the hammer in the SA mode, can fire this gun.

I think what happens is that when the hammer is pulled back almost to the cocked position and then released, the shock of the hammer hitting the back of the gun creates enough inertia to cause the firing pin to jerk forward with enough force to fire the round. I believe this is the same thing that happened to the series 70 1911's prompting the development of the series 80 1911's with the firing pin safety.

Therefore, I think the poster's that recommended keeping the safety in the down position with a live round in the chamber, are correct. With the safety in the down position, the firing pin is actually locked in position. This would of course also keep the gun from firing if dropped on a hard surface with the muzzle down (as reported from at least one poster).

The only thing I am wondering now is if this would actually happen with some of the European ammo with the very hard primers. My testing was with Hornady ammo which would not have primers near as hard as some of the stuff around when these guns were designed.

Thanks again gang,

Trooper Joe
snailman153624
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Re: My P64 does have a hammer block

Post by snailman153624 »

What if the issue is that the hammer rotates so quickly that the notch doesn't engage reliably?
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Re: My P64 does have a hammer block

Post by gemini1 »

Which is why I asked, 'coz that part I was pointing at, is the only one that would look like its the one blocking the hammer when at rest. But that part per the parts diagram is the sear. viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1536

Snailman, you mentioned that its a notch on the bottom part of the hammer, is it one of those two notches after the red arrow, on the pics below?

[UImage

As for an AD situation? If as TJ mentioned, he was able to replicate the situation using Hornady rounds with pulled bullets. I'm just thinking, maybe one way to minimize an AD, though not 100% sure, is to re-prime some of your self defense rounds with NATO spec primers?
I'll try to simulate what TJ did on my next range trip, with my reloads primed with Tula SPP, as well as some RWS and Flex Tip.
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Re: My P64 does have a hammer block

Post by robhic »

Trooper joe wrote:ROBHIC in regards to your question, "Are "we" saying that the guns are, or are NOT safe to carry with the rotating, slide-mounted safety/decocker in the 'OFF' position - red dot visible?", I believe that some of these P-64's need to be carried with the safety lever in the down position (red dot not showing). I would suggest doing the "pencil test" as described several times in this thread, to see if you do have a functioning hammer "block system".
OK, so what I did last night was take 2 vintage 1975 and 1 1977 pistols and try the now ubiquitous "pencil test" in different forms. All 3 performed the same so no difference between years. Full cock and pull trigger the pencil launches pretty high. Hammer back just shy of clicking into SA mode (took a few times to get it close 'cause it kept catching!). Release hammer without touching the trigger and pencil launched to where I'd have expected a round to have gone off if loaded and not a pencil. I never tried with the hammer in what I'd assume would be a sorta half-cock position so don't know if it woulda launched the pencil but I'm thinking it would from what I'd seen already.

I may go try with the hammer in lesser cocked positions if I get rambunctious today but it's looking more and more that these pistols, to be perfectly safe, should be ON "safe" to prevent firing. I'm not real happy with it but them's the breaks.
- Robert

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Curly1
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Re: My P64 does have a hammer block

Post by Curly1 »

Keep in mind that not using the safety put not only you but others around you at risk and open to a negligence lawsuit if detemined that you didn't use it.
Laugh Hard and Often.

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Re: My P64 does have a hammer block

Post by robhic »

Curly1 wrote:Keep in mind that not using the safety put not only you but others around you at risk and open to a negligence lawsuit if detemined that you didn't use it.
Oh, I do quite agree with you. I've just been hoping that it would be proven that in some way the P-64 could be rendered 'safe' without using the actual safety like on more modern guns. I find it a nuisance but not enough of one to set myself up for even ONE of the problems that could occur should a ND happen! Nope, it just ain't worth it. :cry:
- Robert

"Giving Money and Power to Government is Like Giving Whiskey and Car Keys to Teenage Boys" - PJ O'Rourke
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