1974 P-64 - Middle safety position

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keith150
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Re: 1974 P-64 - Middle safety position

Post by keith150 »

Marty I went with the 17lb hammer spring and 22lb recoil spring the sa pull is light and the da pull is considerably lighter I don't need two fingers to pull the trigger
wlockridge
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Re: 1974 P-64 - Middle safety position

Post by wlockridge »

I'll catch hell for saying this and I DO NOT recommend anyone doing this. That being said, the P64, or I should say my P64 at least, does in fact have a detente between safe and fire. My safety has a very noticeable half way point. It's a 1977. I was reading on another website that it could be carried like a 1911 and, in fact, it can. That's if you're reckless enough to do something that dangerous. At the half way point the weapon can be cocked, the trigger is disconnected, and the safety is placed in the fire position with the flick of the thumb. I wouldn't carry mine in that condition under any circumstance but it is possible. One wrong move and someone gets shot. The point to this is that someone mistakenly thought that this was designed in and spread it around as though it was the gospel. It is not. It's just the result of the stiff safety release. My safety is as smooth as silk. I kept using Lucas assembly lube at the pivot points every time I cleaned it and after some use, I started using Lucas gun oil on it after every cleaning and now I can flick the safety off with the side of my thumb almost as easily as on my 45. I carry mine with a full mag and one in the pipe and don't worry about dropping it. I use a custom made holster which admittedly costs quite a bit and I maintain it religiously. I've carried many weapons over the years that weren't "drop safe" without incident. It's all about that thing between your ears. I know guys that wash and wax their cars every weekend but can't be bothered to inspect and clean their weapon and holster system once a year. Safety is in the mind of the beholder I guess. Well there's my two cents worth <G>. Welcome to the forum Marty.
Bill
Shoot first, Shoot straight, and hit what you're aiming at, if you can do these things and have six rounds of ammo, you'll have two thirds more than you need to prevail.
gemini1
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Re: 1974 P-64 - Middle safety position

Post by gemini1 »

I had this issue before. Mine was a 1976, when I functioned check it with a full mag, hammer cocked, safety engaged, the hammer block goes up but the hammer stays cocked and wouldn't fall even if you pull the trigger. Its like a 1911. release the safety and the hammer falls when trigger is pulled.
I found out that the disconnector is not going down deep enough the release the hammer. The simple fix is replace it, or you can do as I did. Disassemble the pistol, get the disconnector and place it on an anvil, hammer the top part area a few times. The idea is to let the metal expand a bit or enough so that when the notch(?) or part of the safety that engages the disconnector can push it deep enough to engage the sear and let the hammer fall.
Check it here;
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5604
MartyW
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Re: 1974 P-64 - Middle safety position

Post by MartyW »

Thanks keith150, wlockridge & gemini1 for your input.

Keith150 - Thanks for the input on the 17 lb srping. I got my springs in yesterday and I had only the 18, 19 & 20 lb hammer springs. I just started another thead with spring questions. I went ahead and installed the 18 lb hammer spring today and also ordered a 17 lb from Wolff to try that too. The 18 lb is better than original but I'd like to try the 17 also. How do you like the 22 lb recoil spring?

wlockridge - thanks for that input. I knew it wasn't my imagination. On my 1974 there is also a definite half way point. It's not a detent but its definitely a certain midway point that disconnects the trigger and appears to back the hammer off the firing pin a little bit. I'll look for the Lucas gun lube. I've been working on flipping the safety with the thumb like Curly1 said and it works well but my thumb now has a torn hangnail that doesn't feel great. So at the range when doing this over and over I think I'll try a bandaid over that part of the thumb so as to not totally mess up the thumb and I know that if needed for real the thumb can work the safety quickly and if my thumb smarts afterwards then that will be the least of my worries...

gemini1 - thanks for that info and link. I've only tried mine without being loaded so far and putting the safety on full safe does drop the cocked hammer.
MartyW
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Re: 1974 P-64 - Middle safety position

Post by MartyW »

Hi to all,

I spent some time this afternoon changing springs, cleaning, oiling and observing.

The flat ground (on both ends) 22 lb recoil spring is now installed and the 18 lb hammer spring is in too. Its much better than original but I went ahead today and ordered a 17 lb hammer spring to try it out too. So this weekend there should be several different combos to try if needed.

And as I was cleaning I spent a bit of time simply observing what happens in the slide when the safety is being deployed and retracted, and now I think it finally makes sense. With the slide off and no hammer contacting the safety, there is no middle position, just fire and full safe. As the safety is being deployed from fire downward the back-off mechanism that surrounds and blocks the firing pin is being rotated into place. When the slide is installed and the hammer is present, then that "middle" position is when the block-off mechanism is contacting the hammer, and in that position the hammer is blocked from the firing pin and the trigger is disconnected and the safety lever is about half way down. So in that middle position, is it fully safe? Not really because the safety lever could easily be bumped into the fire position. But if a person is willing to carry the P-64 with safety off then it seems to me that this safety position could add a little of a safeness factor but it could be easily be bumped to the fire position. I oiled and worked the safety for quite a while this afternoon and it is still stiff coming off full safe but it appears that the block-off cam could have the square edge rounded ever so slightly which would allow it to come off of full safe a little easier and still be very safe.

But me being a newbie, I think I'll try it at the range pulling from full safe to fire while being drawn and see if I can learn to get fairly proficient at that that like Curly1 uses his. But also during the session I may want to try with the safety on half while holstered.

Many thanks again to all for the help and insight and all comments and suggestions are much appreciated. This appears to be one sweet little pistol.
Marty
wlockridge
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Re: 1974 P-64 - Middle safety position

Post by wlockridge »

Marty,
You can find Lucas gun oil at most any Autozone if you have one near you. What I found out was that the Lucas Assembly lube was what made the greatest difference. It's heavy, almost like pancake syrup, and generally tends to stay where you put it. It's actually designed for putting motors together. Over time it works it's way into the metal. I learned this trick from someone on this forum. There's a wealth of knowledge here. Also, if you push in and up at the same time it makes it somewhat easier to put it into firing mode.You'll get used to it after awhile and it will become second nature to you anyway. You've bought a fine little firearm and it won't let you down. Hoping this finds you and yours safe.
Bill
Shoot first, Shoot straight, and hit what you're aiming at, if you can do these things and have six rounds of ammo, you'll have two thirds more than you need to prevail.
MartyW
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Re: 1974 P-64 - Middle safety position

Post by MartyW »

Many thanks Bill. There is an Autozone just down the road a bit. I was aware of the Lucas engine oil stabilizer and use it regularly but I wasn't aware of the assembly lube. I'll for sure get some before this weekend's range trip and I'll also work that safety some more with the Lucas in it and I'll try that push in and up combo on the safety too. This info is much appreciated!
Marty
wlockridge
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Re: 1974 P-64 - Middle safety position

Post by wlockridge »

Marty,
You're very welcome. Some folks advocate using a Demmel tool on it and smoothing off the rough edges. When I took mine apart I couldn't find any rough edges and I always try and save the cutting and slicing for last as I tend to get a little carried away and once you cut it of you can't put it back on. Given a little time It will break itself in. That assembly lube on the pivot points also helps with the stiff trigger pull a little bit. Stay safe.
Bill
Shoot first, Shoot straight, and hit what you're aiming at, if you can do these things and have six rounds of ammo, you'll have two thirds more than you need to prevail.
gemini1
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Re: 1974 P-64 - Middle safety position

Post by gemini1 »

Marty, in my case, I didn't wait for the stiff decocker to get smoothen out from use. I dont CCW it (yet), so I dont keep the gun with one in the chamber and decock it everytime.
If you disassemble the decocker assembly (guide - viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4200 ), you will see that the detent is quite pointed. I filed the pointed area in a circular motion, not really rounded off in a sense but more like dull out the pointed area, and finish off with a 1500 grit sandpaper to remove any burrs. I also, on the spot/hole where the detent (safety/fire position) sits grinded a tiny bit, at an angle, the area where the detent slides out when engaging the decocker.
Just remember to take you time, do it slow. You may need to assemble and dis-assemble a couple of time, to function check if its smooth enough to your taste.
I had to do mine a couple of times, and my decocker is just as smooth to operate, as my 3rd gen S&W.
Be safe.
MartyW
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Re: 1974 P-64 - Middle safety position

Post by MartyW »

Thanks gemini1 for that info and link, and thanks Mr Taylor for the great videos.

I watched Mr Taylor's video on disassembling the slide and tried to get the firing pin out since I had suitable punch & forceps. But I could not get the safety to wiggle out. It would come out about a 64th inch or so and that was about it. So I went ahead and put it back with the Lucas assembly lube that Bill mentioned above (thanks Bill) and the assembly lube definitely make it a little better.
gemini1
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Re: 1974 P-64 - Middle safety position

Post by gemini1 »

Marty, did you push and lock the firing pin all the way in, or far enough forward then locked in place with the forceps? If so, turn the safety level halfway between fire and safe, this will get the detent out of the locking hole area. You can then wiggle it out, you can also use a small flat tool, screw driver or pocket knife which you can insert at the edge of the safety drum and slide, and use that to slide the safety out. Now when doing this, I would suggest placing the slide in a big plastic bag, or cover myself on a thin bed sheet/blanket. You wouldn't want the detent and spring flying to oblivion. Do the same if you plan to remove the extractor.
MartyW
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Re: 1974 P-64 - Middle safety position

Post by MartyW »

Thanks gemini1. I'm pretty sure I had the firing pin clear by a good eighth inch or so, but I'm thinking the problem was probably that the safety detent was still engaged giving more side pressure on the safety. Great info and much appreciated. I'll try that this weekend and report back.
Marty
MartyW
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Re: 1974 P-64 - Middle safety position

Post by MartyW »

Tomorrow will be range day so I had some time today to work with the P64 again. This time the safety wiggled out easily.

I did some very very slight manual filing and then reassembled everything. I didn't do enough to make much noticable difference and that was on purpose to make sure I didn't do too much. I had a heck of a time getting the safety detent spring and safety detent back in front of the safety but I finally got it back in. Is there a trick to this to make it easier? I just got the slimest thing I had and held the detent forward while sliding the safety back in. The safety push pressure needed is pretty much the same now as it was so it will need to be done again if I want to loosen it up.

While doing this process I observed that the safety detent has to be compressed its full length into the safety spring opening which means that the spring & detent are exerting a lot of pressure against the safety - probably a bit more than it needs to. It looks to me like one possible fix would be to simply cut about an eighth of an inch off the safety detent spring. That would still give it nearly a quarter inch of compression to hold against the safety grooves but it would be less pressure than is there now. Has anyone done this? Before doing this I would make sure I had a new detent spring and I did find one of those for sale today and went ahead and purchased it.

Edit: I did a search and found this post where Zeke said he took one and a half loops off the spring and had good results, and Weasel640 also warned about taking too much off. Thanks guys!
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5431&p=50295&hilit= ... ing#p50295

And another post where losingle said he took two loops off the spring.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4378&p=50294&hilit= ... ing#p50294
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