Stovepiping -- could new hammer spring be to blame?

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snailman153624
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Re: Stovepiping -- could new hammer spring be to blame?

Post by snailman153624 »

I should mention, every P64 I've fired, the spent casings come flying out of there and land about 20 feet away, if not more. I don't see how limp wristing it would make any difference considering the ejection velocity, it's a bat outta hell. There is definitely something wrong mechanically.
garybok
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Re: Stovepiping -- could new hammer spring be to blame?

Post by garybok »

A new three-pack of various recoil springs arrived yesterday from Wolff. It's probably just my imagination, but the new 18# recoil spring in the pack certainly seems a little stiffer than the original spring, which I'm assuming was supposed to be 18# as well. It's hard to detect without the right equipment, of course, so I might just be deluding myself that I can feel a difference.

Just the same, though, I'm growing more and more inclined to believe the primary cause of the problem was a worn out recoil spring all along. It was probably still the original from 1976. Now that I have a number of new spring combinations available, I think I'll go back to the 19# hammer spring and try a new 22# recoil spring this weekend. Thanks again for the great insights from everyone. This is a great forum for learning!
jemsj4
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Re: Stovepiping -- could new hammer spring be to blame?

Post by jemsj4 »

Did you take it out last week end?
garybok
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Re: Stovepiping -- could new hammer spring be to blame?

Post by garybok »

Yes, I did. With 19# hammer spring and 22# recoil spring. Shot about 70 rounds of Fiocchi ammo and had one stovepipe out of the whole session. Better than before, but still not perfect. The chamber, extractor and all adjacent parts were absolutely squeaky clean. No significant marks on the stovepiped casing. The stovepipe happened about half-way through the session, when I was trying some fairly quick double action/single action drills -- lifting the pistol from the bench and firing double-action with a quick single-action follow-up shot. The stovepipe came after one of the double-action shots. It could be I was just rushing the shot and got a little careless about limp-wristing. I like the feel of this spring combination, so I think my next step is to go through a couple more sessions with this setup, making note of all the circumstances if there is another stovepipe, including which magazine (or magazines) are involved.

Getting there, but not yet perfectly reliable. Thanks for the follow-up!
snailman153624
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Re: Stovepiping -- could new hammer spring be to blame?

Post by snailman153624 »

Even limp wristing, the casing fly a good 30 feet. You're just trying to believe it's technique. I would suggest trying different ammo if you haven't already.
Last edited by snailman153624 on September 7th, 2014, 4:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
garybok
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Re: Stovepiping -- could new hammer spring be to blame?

Post by garybok »

Thanks, snailman, but I've now had stovepiping with three different brands of ammo: Fiocchi, RWS, and Prvi Partizan. This weekend it happened five times out of about 70 rounds. I've started logging them carefully to try to find a pattern, but I'm seeing none. It's now happened to two different shooters, using three types of ammo, in three different magazines, and with at least three different combinations of recoil and hammer springs, including going back to the original springs. It doesn't seem to happen on the first or last rounds in a magazine -- usually one of the rounds in the middle, but I don't think that signifies anything. I keep it extremely clean, taking special care with the inside of the chamber as well as the bolt face and extractor.

The extractor looks to be absolutely undamaged or any unusual wear, even inspecting under a glass. Same for the ejector (or the slide hold-open lever). I've viewed several videos on You Tube that happen to show close-ups of those and mine look to be absolutely identical. No nicks or unusual wear.

I'm wondering if the extractor spring might be at fault. I can easily lift up the extractor with just a fingernail -- no strain at all. It springs back into position alright, but it's very easy to flex. I have no other P-64 to compare it to so I'm not sure how easy it's supposed to work. I compared it to my Tokarev and there's a world of difference. The Tokarev is extremely tight -- you need a small screwdriver and a good bit of leverage to lift the extractor. Obfiously, they're completely different systems so that doesn't prove anything either, but it's all I had to compare.

I suppose the next step would be to order a new extractor, plunger, and above all, extractor spring. It's really about the only option I have left. But frankly, I'm just hesitant to throw more money into it at this point. Between the original purchase, new recoil and hammer spring packs, a partially successful attempt by a local gunsmith to fashion a replacement for broken decocker, and then the cost of a new decocker when they finally came available on Gunbroker, I've now sunk well over $400 into this piece -- for a gun that might bring $200-$250 tops, if I were to try to sell it.

Maybe it's time to just cut my losses. I'll have to think about it some more. But thanks for all the support, everybody!
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Re: Stovepiping -- could new hammer spring be to blame?

Post by garybok »

Hold everything! Forget what I just said! I think we may have a breakthrough. While trying to decide whether to order new extractor parts, I decided to go ahead and disassemble the parts first to see if I could even get it apart in the first place. When I finally got it disassembled, both the extractor and plunger looked flawless, as I expected, but I discovered the extractor spring had broken into two pieces -- instead of a 1/2" extractor spring, mine had two 1/4" springs. Of course, they fit end to end inside the channel, so the total force of the springs would still be basically the same as one unbroken spring, but I have to think it would have at least some effect. It certainly is the obvious next step. I see on some other threads that Wolff should have the spring I need, if I can figure out which one it is. Here's hoping I can get this back together once I get it.
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Curly1
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Re: Stovepiping -- could new hammer spring be to blame?

Post by Curly1 »

That does sound encouraging.
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jemsj4
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Re: Stovepiping -- could new hammer spring be to blame?

Post by jemsj4 »

Congrats on finding the cause!!
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Re: Stovepiping -- could new hammer spring be to blame?

Post by garybok »

Thanks! Won't know for sure till the new spring arrives but I'm definitely encouraged.
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Re: Stovepiping -- could new hammer spring be to blame?

Post by garybok »

Just to close the loop here in case anyone is still curious. I finally managed to replace the ejector spring -- took some trial and error since none of the springs in the Wolff heavy duty package was a perfect match for the original. Plus, of course, getting it cut to the exact right length took a few tries as we'll. But I eventually got it to where it at least felt about right, and finally got to try it out at the range today.

Result: after 90 rounds of two different brands of ammo, not a single malfunction! I should probably run another hundred rounds or so before I officially declare it completely cured, but it sure looks good for now. Thanks again for all the input!
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Weasel640
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Re: Stovepiping -- could new hammer spring be to blame?

Post by Weasel640 »

Glad you got it figured out. Now you should be able to figure out what combination of hammer spring vs recoil spring you like best as well.
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Curly1
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Re: Stovepiping -- could new hammer spring be to blame?

Post by Curly1 »

Great news, congrats and thanx for the update.
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Gary
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